E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term • Hacker News Board

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#111

Post by DanBC » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:40 PM UTC

onli wrote: post #101

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can have a business model that is ethically and morally wrong without getting into jail Rule of law. You go to jail for breaking the law, not for being unethical or immoral. Societies which forget this distinction fall fast. (Legislation, turning morals and ethics into laws, is the intermediating process your complaint more properly addresses.)

There is no law violated here.

Most copyright jursidictions make a difference for non-commercial copyrigth infringement and commercial copyright infringement. Most of them put commercial copyright infringement in the criminal offence category.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#112

Post by oldcynic » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:42 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #52

codetrotter wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $25 includes the cost of a Windows license. The restore disks Lundgren was intending to distribute required the user to be in possession of a license already. Lundgren should not have been sentenced to prison for this. At most he should have been punished for trademark infringement. It’s a god damn travesty that we have judges who don’t seem to understand the very important technical details of the court cases th…

I did a little bit more research and my original post was factually inaccurate, but the point was correct. An article from 2011 says this: >The original Microsoft (COA) attached to the PC does not allow you to reload Microsoft Windows software when no original recovery media is present. https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/mssmallbiz/2011/10/05/looki... So that's the crucial point. Yes, the software was free to download,…

So you apparently need the original recovery disk, and the original manuals?

In other words MS are trying very hard to make selling refurbished computers impractical, so please throw it away, and buy a new one with new Windows licence.

If the judge was on the ball the man should have been found guilty and fined 1c and attention drawn to ridiculous licencing in his summing up. Better for justice of course would be throwing out the terms of the licence and finding him not guilty.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#113

Post by cmiles74 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:42 PM UTC

snuxoll wrote: post #98

ssimpson wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It used to be that you got a “restore disk” with your new computer. I’ve had a few dells that had this, Apple used to as well. Now if anything, there is a rescue partition or a utility that knows how to download an rescue image. Without a valid license key you shouldn’t be able to use the restore disk. A lot of people who got these just threw them away. This guy was trying to help them reset their computer to a g…

Microsoft provides free downloads of Windows 8/10 installation media on their website, saying they'd "prefer you buy a new license" is a little disingenuous. What they don't want is people distributing installation media outside their authorized channels, counterfeiting is a huge problem for their Windows/Office business and they have a huge motivation to combat it. Was this counterfeiting? Most certainly not in spir…

I think the fact that Microsoft pursued this suit makes it clear that they would "prefer you to buy a new license". The statement doesn't seem disingenuous to me.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#114

Post by fuball63 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:44 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #103

fuball63 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first response was "he should have used linux", but I came to a similar conclusion as you. People are scared of linux, despite it now being almost as easy as Windows to install/use for typical usage. E-waste is the result of computer transitioning from the role of "tool" to role of "disposable consumer good". The effort to provide people with the ability to easily repair their machines to a familiar state (being W…

> My first response was "he should have used linux", but I came to a similar conclusion as you. People are scared of linux, despite it now being almost as easy as Windows to install/use for typical usage. People aren't any more scared of Linux than they are of Windows. Not to go on yet another rant about all the problems with Linux as a desktop, but refusing to acknowledge that they exist and instead blaming users is…

My experience trying to set people up with Linux desktops is that even though the metaphors are the same, (like the desktop, start button, update manager, word processor), the unfamiliarity of the branding turns people off. Also, any errors that appeared (one time the package list got corrupted), they immediately go to "ah I'm not an expert this linux thing isn't for me", whereas if Windows showed a cryptic dialog error window, they just ignore it and move on, because that's the norm.

I'd be interested in your thoughts about Linux as a desktop; I just got done with a multi month battle to get my graphics card working (contradicting everything I say about Linux being easy), but I still love Kubuntu 18.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#115

Post by natch » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:45 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #86

reimertz wrote: post #30

As a CEO, you can have a business model that is ethically and morally wrong without getting into jail. As a CEO, you can ignore obvious security flaws leading to 100 million social security numbers getting leaked without getting into jail. As a CEO, you can sexually harass your employees without getting into jail. Try and save the world by repurpose old computers, causing one of the biggest companies in the world to…

> you can have a business model that is ethically and morally wrong without getting into jail Rule of law. You go to jail for breaking the law, not for being unethical or immoral. Societies which forget this distinction fall fast. (Legislation, turning morals and ethics into laws, is the intermediating process your complaint more properly addresses.)

You're missing the whole crux of the story. The supposed law broken here (none, actually) is based on multiple judges being absolutely clueless about technology and refusing the regard the testimony of an expert witness who was trying to set the first judge straight.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#116

Post by ksk » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:46 PM UTC

joeevans1000 wrote: post #35

This is ridiculous. This should be a civil case at most. We are entering into a dangerous era for our own selves when we allow this sort of punishment for software issues. Additionally, this guy recycles 41 million pounds of e-waste a year. He should be celebrated. As a result of that, I can only imagine his larger clients may have to drop the use of the services of his company. Apparently, we don't care, and many co…

You are free to hate Microsoft of course, but your point didn't make much sense to me. Nobody except Microsoft is allowed to distribute Windows because thats their right under copyright law. Its the same law that prohibits people from distributing GPL'd binaries without providing the source. The owner/creator has certain rights.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#117

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:46 PM UTC

HenryBemis wrote: post #33

One of the phrases I keep from this article is: “I don’t think anybody in that courtroom understood what a restore disk was”. I remember listening to Steve Gibson (GRC), on SecurityNow podcast, saying that this is the exact reason why he is not willing to testify to a Court of Law any more. Having testified in court for some cases as "specialist" it is (almost always) needed to find metaphors and analogies on anythin…

[deleted]

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#118

Post by ben509 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:47 PM UTC

snuxoll wrote: post #98

ssimpson wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It used to be that you got a “restore disk” with your new computer. I’ve had a few dells that had this, Apple used to as well. Now if anything, there is a rescue partition or a utility that knows how to download an rescue image. Without a valid license key you shouldn’t be able to use the restore disk. A lot of people who got these just threw them away. This guy was trying to help them reset their computer to a g…

Microsoft provides free downloads of Windows 8/10 installation media on their website, saying they'd "prefer you buy a new license" is a little disingenuous. What they don't want is people distributing installation media outside their authorized channels, counterfeiting is a huge problem for their Windows/Office business and they have a huge motivation to combat it. Was this counterfeiting? Most certainly not in spir…

The underlying issue isn't copyright law, as it's a means to an end and has always made this kind of abuse possible. This is retailers using government to crack down on secondary markets (markets that deal in used goods, subleasing, reselling tickets, etc); copyright law happens to be a means to that end. You see the same actions with landlords going after airbnb, of course they use a different body of law.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#119

Post by dgzl » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:50 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #86

reimertz wrote: post #30

As a CEO, you can have a business model that is ethically and morally wrong without getting into jail. As a CEO, you can ignore obvious security flaws leading to 100 million social security numbers getting leaked without getting into jail. As a CEO, you can sexually harass your employees without getting into jail. Try and save the world by repurpose old computers, causing one of the biggest companies in the world to…

> you can have a business model that is ethically and morally wrong without getting into jail Rule of law. You go to jail for breaking the law, not for being unethical or immoral. Societies which forget this distinction fall fast. (Legislation, turning morals and ethics into laws, is the intermediating process your complaint more properly addresses.)

Gross negligence with severe dude effects and sexual harassment could easily fall in a criminal category.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#120

Post by analognoise » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:50 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #95

analognoise wrote: post #80

I was really angry about this, until I read that the disks had Microsoft and Dell logos.

MS and Dell logos are also used to indicate compatibility. That's probably what was meant by their use here. (If you have any disks at your house, see how many have a Windows/Apple logo on them.)

I think he lifted the design of a genuine Dell restore disc . It was seized by customs.