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Soviet-Era Industrial Design

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Re: Soviet-Era Industrial Design

#111

Post by pnathan »

euos wrote: post #49
pnathan wrote: post #45

I always will wonder if, suppose we hadn't bothered with a "cold war" and the mutual antipathy & fear, the Soviet system would be ticking along well. So, I always find the bits of Soviet thought fascinating. In large part, I think it is because it is both modern and alien . A different road was taken and a different perspective was built in so many things. Even when I work with people who grew up in that world, they…

Communists considered Soviet Union just a bridgehead for the World Revolution. It primary goal was to serve as a resource base for spreading the fire all over the world. I just checked and it looks like English version of “the Internationale” is mild, the Russian lyrics explicitly state “this world of oppression we’ll reduce to rubble and will use that rubble to build our new world” - and I can guarantee you, USSR wa…

Yes, marxism-leninism definitely sought to build a new world on the rubble of capitalism, with the Soviet Union the starting point prior to the socialist paradise. Please, I'm not that naive.

However, modifications to core ideologies are possible, and reform is possible. E.g., the USA started by defining its voting citizens as "property owning white male". Today we have altered that.

So I rather wonder what would have happened if the ideology had been dialectically altered to form a new synthesis of post-Marxism-Leninism with a non-aggressive goal. But that's a long-past alternate time, and what was, was.

Re: Soviet-Era Industrial Design

#112

Post by Fins »

c-smile wrote: post #105
Fins wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the time of the WWII it was just as bad; pretty much all of strategic supplies, explosives, fuel, etc. were coming from USA and UK. USSR supplied most of the manpower, but without the American military-industrial complex, Germans would have rolled all the way to the Pacific with no problem.

"pretty much all of strategic supplies" That's simply not true. 58,000 of T34/T34-85 was produced during WW2 time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_combat_vehicle_producti... That's just medium tanks - workhorse of the war. Total production of armored vehicles in USSR at WW2 > 100,000. While it got 19,510 tanks in total on Lend-Lease: https://ww2-weapons.com/lend-lease-tanks-and-aircrafts/ Only 4,000 of them were…

When T-34's and Shermans met in Korea, it didn't go too well for T-34's. And some of the most decorated Soviet aces flew Airacobras.

But the most important part is that without American alloys, fuels, machine tools, let alone food and warm clothing (something USSR had a big problem supplying the populace with even during peacetime) there would be nothing to make T-34s with. That's what strategic supplies are.

Some of the important battles early in the war, i.e. stopping Germans from marching on Baku oil fields, were fought mostly with British tanks.

Re: Soviet-Era Industrial Design

#113

Post by MsMowz »

v_lisivka wrote: post #97
MsMowz wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which war? The US backed them in the civil war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge#Foreign_involvemen...

That source doesn't say anything that adds credibility to your point. It's just waffling about the US's involvement in the civil war. By contrast, the WikiLeaks dump of the 1973 diplomatic cables undermine what you're saying.

It's no longer a question of whether or not the US supported the Khmer Rouge. The question now is how much did the US support them. Some members of the state department at the time suggested that the US orchestrated the whole thing. While that seems unlikely to me, it's worth wondering about.

Re: Soviet-Era Industrial Design

#114

Post by watersb »

prolepunk wrote: post #89
paganel wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> older generations of trams of Riga A quick google search confirmed what I had already suspected, that is that those trams are Tatra trams, built in former Czechoslovakia. I’m a big fan of them, I think they are the main reason why I immediately became a tram-lover as a student almost 20 years ago when I moved to Bucharest in order to study. Of course, the newer trams look and are often times a lot more comfortable,…

I don't think this is something particular to Warsaw bloc countries. For example I love GM new look buses that were running around refurbished up until early 2000s, and the main reason they were replaced not because last of them broke down but because they weren't accessible. I bet it's the same situation with Tatra streetcars. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=gm+new+look+bus&t=ffab&atb=v112-4&...

"accessible" here meaning "able to be used by people in wheelchairs.

(I guess almost all HN readers are familiar with this term from software "accessibility" design. USA English is my native (and at present, only) language but I find these terms odd.)

Re: Soviet-Era Industrial Design

#115

Post by [deleted] »

watersb wrote: post #114
prolepunk wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is something particular to Warsaw bloc countries. For example I love GM new look buses that were running around refurbished up until early 2000s, and the main reason they were replaced not because last of them broke down but because they weren't accessible. I bet it's the same situation with Tatra streetcars. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=gm+new+look+bus&t=ffab&atb=v112-4&...

"accessible" here meaning "able to be used by people in wheelchairs. (I guess almost all HN readers are familiar with this term from software "accessibility" design. USA English is my native (and at present, only) language but I find these terms odd.)

[deleted]

Re: Soviet-Era Industrial Design

#116

Post by Fins »

coldtea wrote: post #110
Fins wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the time of the WWII it was just as bad; pretty much all of strategic supplies, explosives, fuel, etc. were coming from USA and UK. USSR supplied most of the manpower, but without the American military-industrial complex, Germans would have rolled all the way to the Pacific with no problem.

> USSR supplied most of the manpower, but without the American military-industrial complex, Germans would have rolled all the way to the Pacific with no problem. That's revisionist history -- and not the way things went down, or even how people that lived it knew them to be. https://www.vox.com/2014/6/16/5814270/the-successful-70-year... Or even how Hitler knew them to be: https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php…

Have you posted something about a novel historical research showing that neither lend-lease nor pre-lend-lease supplies of war materiel ever happened, it might have made for an interesting discussion. Vox, however, prints exactly what is to be expected from what Uncle Joe used to call fellow travelers in public, and useful idiot in private.

That reminds me of one time I was asked to help in translating some "documents" showing that it was US soldiers rather than Soviet that moved pretty much every German that still moved. A quick fact check showed that they lifted the passage from a neo-nazi site, which is where most attempts to defend the USSR usually end.

Re: Soviet-Era Industrial Design

#117

Post by greglindahl »

TheForumTroll wrote: post #83
mantas wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Catching up is kinda easy when you can just copy. USSR failed badly once it was time to go forward. Especially on electronics and computers. We shouldn't underestimate what focused dictatorships are capable of. They're bloody effective.

Would you mind answering why it took the US more than 20 years to catch somewhat up with Russian rocket engines even though they had access to information on how it was made if it is so easy? The best Russian rockets from the Soviet era wasn't beat by the US before SpaceX did so.

The US still hasn't caught up. SpaceX's Merlin engine is more advanced and less advanced than the best Russian engines: less efficient, but extremely simple (in sophisticated ways like face shut-off), and much cheaper, despite being built in LA.

Raptor and the BE-4 will probably close the gap.

Re: Soviet-Era Industrial Design

#118

Post by mantas »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #98
mantas wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> True, what I meant was exactly this. There's always resources plenty for the things elites consider important, but if there was enough of them and then some, something would have trickled down to computing also. Or they'd have had more resources towards military or friendly regimes. Those 2 are kinda black holes for money > Just like in every empire ever, including the U.S. at present, (still no universal healthcar…

> I don't think finances are stopping universal healthcare in US. It's purely ideological. Ideology is used as a mask to protect corporate (private insurance) interests, which is why the top brass doesn't have interest in universal healthcare. It's a matter of interests and priorities, just like it was a matter of interests and priorities for the Soviets to ficus resources on things other than improving people's livi…

First of all, I'm talking from European perspective. My exposure to US is limited to Americans I talk to.

I met lots of Americans who don't want universal healthcare purely for ideological reasons. Their arguments sometimes do make sense actually. Universal health care in Europe has it's fair share of problems and some aspects of US system are used to fix it.

And yes, average European and American (as much as that can be generalised) are quire different ideologically. For example, national ID and police having rights to ask for it is kinda a given in Europe. Nobody thinks that's wrong. Now try to tell that to Americans :) Or your attitude to various government-related things.

On top of that, even if it was purely corruption in US government, it'd be already different from USSR. Where it was ideologically motivated to put everything into military.

In USSR, citizens didn't have even theoretical power to have a say in allocating resources. Parties putting forward proposals and then trying to (not) follow through is infinitely different. Oh, and at least in Europe, they sometimes do follow through.

And the major difference is private sector existence. Soviets cared little if consumer goods are any good. A shirt is a shirt, if it has shitty fit or lame colors - it's a customer's problem. Meanwhile factory will keep making them for decades without any improvements. Scarcity of everyday goods? Meh, who needs toilet paper when we can build few more tanks. Meanwhile in capitalism system adjusts itself very quickly.

Actually, the problems you listed, just shows how government is always abusing whatever powers it got. Soviet system being extreme example of all-reaching government power. While different capitalist systems have more or less fixed that. Unfortunately 100% capitalist system is not viable either, since it needs checks to keep companies from abusing it.

Re: Soviet-Era Industrial Design

#119

Post by Can_Not »

v_lisivka wrote: post #106
Fins wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the time of the WWII it was just as bad; pretty much all of strategic supplies, explosives, fuel, etc. were coming from USA and UK. USSR supplied most of the manpower, but without the American military-industrial complex, Germans would have rolled all the way to the Pacific with no problem.

At beginning of WWW2, USSR had pretty good position: thousands of tanks, millions of tons of ammunition, million army, powerful ally (Germany). USSR attacked Finland at winter to prevent invasion of France & Britain via Norway and Finland to attack Leningrad. It was risky move, lot of soldiers of Red Army died because of cold, but USSR won. At beginning 1941, USSR waited for beginning of Britain bombing of Baku, to s…

A non-aggression pact is not an alliance, nor does it make an ally. Hitler fundamentally hated the communists, but was also desperate to prevent the USSR from joining the war. Stalin also fundamentally hated the Nazis.

Re: Soviet-Era Industrial Design

#120

Post by nickik »

zeth___ wrote: post #48
nickik wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have dumb rules then rational decision lead to bad effects. That's why you should have good systems of rules. Instiutional economics 101.

Any system of rules will have a utility monster. Be it the Politburo, or Wall Street.

One of the dumbest things I have heard.
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