Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents • Hacker News Board

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#111

Post by mercutio2 » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #69

sathackr wrote: post #16

Trust. But verify. Step-father of a 12 year old boy here. We started monitoring his internet after we caught him looking at inappropriate videos on youtube. He knows he is being monitored and I only block actual porn sites. Neither of us like it but until he has earned our trust back, the situation will not change. I'm his parent, not his friend. My job isn't to make him like me, it's to raise him with proper values…

When I was growing up, I delighted in breaking all of the layers of security my parents loaded up the computers in the house with. I never relented when they tried to block something and they only escalated things, including physically locking away electronics (which also didn't work, I learned how to pick locks and gained access to electronics in other ways), then even further escalations ensued. The main effect of…

Your story saddened me to read. Reminded me of one of my favorite poems:

  Your children are not your children.
  They are sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. 
  They come through you but not from you.
  And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

  You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
  For they have their own thoughts.
  You may house their bodies but not their souls,
  For thir souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which
     you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
  You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make
     them like you.

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#112

Post by idrios » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 3:43 PM UTC

malnourish wrote: post #45

sathackr wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What consequences could you imagine a parent should allow a 10 year old to experience? The consequences of an abnormal sexual development or an unhealthy attitude towards females due to stumbling across hardcore porn and becoming addicted to it at a young age? The consequences of mistaking someone on the internet as a friend and giving them your full address and name so they could bring you ice cream? There are thing…

>The consequences of an abnormal sexual development or an unhealthy attitude towards females due to stumbling across hardcore porn and becoming addicted to it at a young age? Do you have evidence/sources to back this claim?

Here are two cherry-picked articles from a popular website[1] among users of a popular self-help reddit page for overcoming porn addiction[2].

Example of porn linked to abnormal sexual development

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5039517/

Example of unhealthy attitudes towards females

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/38041887_Pornograph...

[1a] https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/

[1b] https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/studies-reported-relationshi...

[1c] https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/studies-linking-porn-use

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/NoFap/

[EDIT] Formatting is hard

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#113

Post by Zaak » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 3:44 PM UTC

sathackr wrote: post #16

Trust. But verify. Step-father of a 12 year old boy here. We started monitoring his internet after we caught him looking at inappropriate videos on youtube. He knows he is being monitored and I only block actual porn sites. Neither of us like it but until he has earned our trust back, the situation will not change. I'm his parent, not his friend. My job isn't to make him like me, it's to raise him with proper values…

> protect him from the dangers he doesn't yet know exist or may not yet understand

This is the big one for me. My job is not primarily to protect my children, it's to prepare them to be functioning adults. To that end, I protect them from dangers that they're not yet ready to face, while teaching them skills to recognize and handle the dangers eventually.

Have you discussed pornography with your stepson? If you haven't seen it already, https://fightthenewdrug.org/ is a good resource.

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#114

Post by hackeraccount » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 3:51 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #72

erispoe wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, what do you think is the right age to give full access?

After they've gone through puberty and we've talked about difficult topics like safe sex. A lot of filters cannot help but block access to USEFUL sex ed information while aggressively trying to limit pornography access. While I'd prefer they limit their porn access as a teenager, plenty of well adjusted people didn't and came out fine. I am far more concerned about "sexting" (and having it shared around at school/use…

I've got a kid and I am not an expert. That said, I don't know about the concept behind "The Talk". Anymore then saying waiting until a kid has gone through Puberty. My thought is that this isn't a light switch - it's a process. And the really important information you need to convey isn't mechanics. I mean, if the kid has mechanic questions go ahead and answer them but despite what everyone says I don't think that's what causes problems. The things you really teach your kid - the things they really need to learn - are the things that you say to them and do in front of them over and over and over for years. It starts when they come into your life. And you keep teaching them when you want to. And you keep teaching them when you don't want to.

This is a terribly depressing world view I realize. I'm more or less convinced that there's nothing I can do to stop screwing up my kid. My one hope is that my wife is pretty competent and luckily enough to the degree that she's not I think I compliment her. We'll see.

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#115

Post by mercutio2 » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 3:51 PM UTC

martin1b wrote: post #106

kristofferR wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don't need a formalized study to see what access to porn can do to a person. It's been documented many times. That's extremely dubious. Teenagers aren't being harmed by seing people having sex, they're mostly being harmed from being sheltered from it.

Explain to me why they are harmed by not seeing people having sex? Also, explain to me what benefit do they gain by seeing people having sex?

Making sex into an illicit thing, rather than just a private thing, frequently leaves teens with damaging relationships to their sexuality and others.

The idea that a teen or pre-teen who’s interested isn’t finding porn through someone else’s computer is very likely mistaken.

By forbidding access, you are losing your child’s trust, which likely forecloses on the opportunity to honestly and openly discuss healthy body image, respect, mutual pleasure, and the fact that porn star bodies are (often) to normal human bodies as toy soldiers are to human soldiers.

Finally, forbidding access to something humans have an innate drive for is liable to make it into forbidden fruit, over-emphasizing, rather than de-emphasizing, the target.

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#116

Post by throwaway84742 » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 3:52 PM UTC

rainbowmverse wrote: post #108

throwaway84742 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take it you are not a parent. Or at least a parent of a more compliant child.

>> I take it you are not a parent. Or at least a parent of a more compliant child. There are too many awful parents out there for me to believe having kids makes one uniquely qualified to make suggestions. Dismissing ideas with a variation on "you must not have kids" is a huge red flag. It's usually done by people who see kids as things to be controlled and made subservient instead of as adults in progress. We were a…

>> having kids [does not make] one uniquely qualified

That is true. But the reverse is not. NOT having kids pretty much guarantees you have mostly romanticized notions about how things should be, and vastly underestimate the issues that parents have to face on a daily basis. Non-parents also seem to universally think that all kids are the same and merely talking to them is enough discipline. It will be enough for a small minority of kids, and nowhere near enough for most. Left to their own devices (if you pardon the pun) most kids will totally veg out and they will be unprepared to face the challenges of adulthood. The goal of a good parent is to make sure it doesn’t happen, even if the kid hates everything you do to make sure of it. Good parents don’t play “friends” with their kids. They’re more of a mix between a close confidant and a demanding manager who is totally prepared to make their kids lives unpleasant if it helps them in the long run.

You will be very quickly disabused of your romanticized notions when you have a child of your own. Until then you should probably refrain from giving parenting advice.

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#117

Post by mercutio2 » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 3:59 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #72

erispoe wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, what do you think is the right age to give full access?

After they've gone through puberty and we've talked about difficult topics like safe sex. A lot of filters cannot help but block access to USEFUL sex ed information while aggressively trying to limit pornography access. While I'd prefer they limit their porn access as a teenager, plenty of well adjusted people didn't and came out fine. I am far more concerned about "sexting" (and having it shared around at school/use…

You should have ongoing talks with your daughter about sex long, long before puberty.

Contraception should be a conversation you have with, approximately, a six year old, when they ask you how babies are made exactly, and why they were born (it’s not just “your parents had sex”, it’s “your parents stopped using contraception” that caused you to be born).

Safe sex, as in, “STIs exist, be cautious but not terrified”, and “intimate partner violence exists, don’t stand for or create cruelty or boundary crossing in intimate relationships” is a conversation for eight or nine year olds.

Young children aren’t yet embarrassed about their bodies or your body, it is much easier (and healthier for all concerned) to get open, loving, accurate information about sex and relationships at the moment it’s requested, well before puberty. Before and during puberty, when the urge to separate from parents is beginning and body shame frequently begins to set in, is a much worse time to have such conversations.

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#118

Post by rainbowmverse » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 4:02 PM UTC

throwaway84742 wrote: post #116

rainbowmverse wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I take it you are not a parent. Or at least a parent of a more compliant child. There are too many awful parents out there for me to believe having kids makes one uniquely qualified to make suggestions. Dismissing ideas with a variation on "you must not have kids" is a huge red flag. It's usually done by people who see kids as things to be controlled and made subservient instead of as adults in progress. We were a…

>> having kids [does not make] one uniquely qualified That is true. But the reverse is not. NOT having kids pretty much guarantees you have mostly romanticized notions about how things should be, and vastly underestimate the issues that parents have to face on a daily basis. Non-parents also seem to universally think that all kids are the same and merely talking to them is enough discipline. It will be enough for a s…

How is suggesting your kid might get into programming by modding a game a romanticized notion? That's one of the most common "how I got into programming" stories. It's completely non-controversial.

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#119

Post by Cakez0r » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

throwaway84742 wrote: post #35

mieseratte wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're lucky, you'll accidentally turn your child into a hacker.

I’m ok with that. At least it’s better than “YouTube watcher”, or “Minecraft player”.

What will you do when your kid is in college?

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#120

Post by erispoe » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 4:21 PM UTC

idrios wrote: post #112

malnourish wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The consequences of an abnormal sexual development or an unhealthy attitude towards females due to stumbling across hardcore porn and becoming addicted to it at a young age? Do you have evidence/sources to back this claim?

Here are two cherry-picked articles from a popular website[1] among users of a popular self-help reddit page for overcoming porn addiction[2]. Example of porn linked to abnormal sexual development https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5039517/ Example of unhealthy attitudes towards females https://www.researchgate.net/publication/38041887_Pornograph... [1a] https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/ [1b] https://www.you…

Your first link is extremely prudent at drawing conclusions. it may well be that too much consumption of pornography decreases one's ability to get to the same degree of arousal in real life. But the meta-study doesn't say anything about the effects of being exposed to pornography as a teenager, and even suggests that these effects are only temporary: quit watching that much porn, and you'll do better.

Your second link is about correlation between consumption of pornography depicting violence against women, and expressing views supporting violence against women. It does not say anything about causation. It's not very surprising that men who support violence against women would consume pornography depicting exactly that.

The two links you provided say absolutely nothing about porn exposure as a teenager. Even if there was a detrimental effect (which the 2 studies don't say), it doesn't mean that monitoring and filtering is an efficient solution, especially at the expense of a healthy relationship with your kid where they trust you enough to have a discussion about something that shocked them.