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A Glimpse into the Bureaucratic Hell of Denying Health Insurance Claims

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Re: A Glimpse into the Bureaucratic Hell of Denying Health Insurance Claims

#111

This story is couched in terms of how bad things were before Obamacare, but I’d like to point out that things aren’t great now either. To prevent Obamacare from bankrupting them, insurance companies are resorting to legally dubious mass-denials, one of which affected me personally. A few months ago, I woke up the next morning after eating some fast food and began vomiting. I couldn’t stop throwing up, and I couldn’t…

> To prevent Obamacare from bankrupting them, insurance companies are resorting to legally dubious mass-denials, one of which affected me personally. What does the policy has to do with Obamacare? Completely unfair denials obviously happened before the ACA (see: this article), and the idea that Anthem is doing this to stave off bankruptcy is laughable (just see their financials since the ACA was enacted).

It seems to be happening more and more post-Obamacare. Further, this is an actual policy now, and this policy was created post-Obamacare (my incident occurred in Nevada, where they have not received permission to deny these claims like they have in other states, so apparently they feel the need to roll it out nationwide without telling anyone). There was no need for the policy before, but now apparently there is in an Obamacare world. But they can't expect people to diagnose themselves and determine whether or not a situation is an "emergency" under insurance company rules, since the symptoms of many non-life threatening conditions feel like they may be life threatening.

Unfortunately, in capitalist economies, when you use the law to put the hurt on companies, they will pass that hurt onto unsuspecting consumers. The money will come from somewhere, and it's not coming out of executives' pockets. Perhaps this is why Nancy Pelosi urged lawmakers and the public not to read Affordable Care Act before it was passed it into law [1]. Had everyone read it, they would have known that problems like this would eventually arise.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV-05TLiiLU

Re: A Glimpse into the Bureaucratic Hell of Denying Health Insurance Claims

#113
post #14

If you're a tech entrepreneur, it's the first story in here that should alarm you the most. It's about denying coverage altogether, not about denying individual claims. Outside of the "guaranteed issue" ACA market, there is virtually no due process for coverage denial. You can be denied on a whim, with little recourse. The list of conditions for which insurance outside the ACA will be denied is long and opaque. The s…

Pre-ACA - California had guarantee issue health insurance with little or no rating factor adjustment (surcharge) for companies with 2-50 employees. Definitely took advantage of that at the time!

Re: A Glimpse into the Bureaucratic Hell of Denying Health Insurance Claims

#115
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really hard to believe though? The ones who are lucky and have the money are fine with the situation. The unlucky ones with no money are too busy fighting diseases, insurance companies, and bill collectors, they don't have time to change the system. Dealing with insurance when you have a serious illness is a full time job. The people who need change most are literally fighting for their lives. Meanwhile, health…

"The whole idea of Obamacare is...the people who are healthy pay for the...sick" This is the whole point of health insurance! What a stupid idiot (I am overly nice to Paul Ryan. His budget plan was the most ridiculous thing I have ever read).

I'm sick of people making this comment because it's flat out wrong.

Insurance is about lowering variance, not about subsidizing high risk. The ACA tries to make insurance affordable for everyone, and in the process, some people pay less than their actuarial cost and others pay more. That is not just insurance, it's forcing people with a lower actuarial risk to subsidize those with a higher risk.

Insurance is about taking the chance element out of something that is inherently probablistic because the rare event would be catastrophic. By pooling risk, you make things more predictable. But everyone is still paying for their own, individual share of the risk pool.

I'm not arguing that we shouldnt, as a society, ensure that everyone can afford health insurance, but we shouldn't pretend that "it's just insurance" because it's something entirely different.

Re: A Glimpse into the Bureaucratic Hell of Denying Health Insurance Claims

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit 2: can a mod please delete this whole thread, starting 3 posts above this one? Arguing about whether tptacek does or does not regularly “crap on people” is neither productive nor topical.

You aren't a moderator here. You are just making this worse. And your comments are in violation of the guidelines just as much as mine are. Edit in reply to your edit: Maybe you haven't noticed the dearth of women on HN. There are lots of subtle ways to crap on someone. One of those is for all the guys to nitpick a woman's comments, shoot them down, never engage her in the same congenial fashion as the men and then d…

[deleted]

Re: A Glimpse into the Bureaucratic Hell of Denying Health Insurance Claims

#117
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ACA is horrendous, unless you're receiving a government subsidy. I'm self-employed and we have one option of insurance provider, and the cheapest plan for my family last year was $18,000 a year with a huge deductible. That's after tax, out of pocket, for a healthy family with no pre-existing. Like all self-employed people I know (who aren't getting government subsidy), I moved my family to Christian Medishare, which…

The rate of increase for health insurance prices went down after the ACA was enacted. The motivation for enacting the ACA was, in large part, the untenable increase in insurance prices in the 10 years leading up to it. People have a bad habit of blaming the ACA for insurance prices. The ACA failed at its goal of making individual health insurance affordable, that is true. But it didn't cause that problem, and it did…

Health insurance for my healthy young family of 4 spiraled out of control WITH ACA, so much so that I didn’t purchase proper health insurance in 2017, while also underfunding my income tax in hopes that ACA cannot legally “send me a bill” for 2.5% of my household income. (I mean shit, in a red blooded patriotic American, but that penalty made me absolutely furious) All this while paying cash for prenatal visits for our next child, still far cheaper than paying for a $15,000/yr policy + 15,000/yr deductible. In my decade of buying family insurance, I watched my family policy increase by nearly $1000/mo combined with a staggering decrease in value provided via super high deductible... oh, and no legal way out.

I know ACA is good for some, but goodness did it remove my interest in remaining insured. I’m sure you can cite data that tells a different story, but my experience, as well as that of my peers, says ACA has been very bad for those actually paying the bill unsubsidized. I fully blame ACA for this.

Re: A Glimpse into the Bureaucratic Hell of Denying Health Insurance Claims

#118
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ACA is horrendous, unless you're receiving a government subsidy. I'm self-employed and we have one option of insurance provider, and the cheapest plan for my family last year was $18,000 a year with a huge deductible. That's after tax, out of pocket, for a healthy family with no pre-existing. Like all self-employed people I know (who aren't getting government subsidy), I moved my family to Christian Medishare, which…

The rate of increase for health insurance prices went down after the ACA was enacted. The motivation for enacting the ACA was, in large part, the untenable increase in insurance prices in the 10 years leading up to it. People have a bad habit of blaming the ACA for insurance prices. The ACA failed at its goal of making individual health insurance affordable, that is true. But it didn't cause that problem, and it did…

Years ago I purchased private insurance for my family in CA. As I recall I was able to get a plan for my wife with no maternity benefits since we were done having children at that point which was significantly cheaper than the alternative. We were paying something like $400/mo total for a family of 4 with an HSA and $4k deductibles.

Later, after some health issues first child diagnosed with T1D we were grandfathered into the private plans and the premiums did not change but the deductible was pretty high and the network was not great.

Later, and this was still pre-ACA - California had guarantee issue health insurance with little or no rating factor adjustment (surcharge) for companies with 2-50 employees. So I hired my wife and we switched to one of those plans. Premiums around $800/mo and $2k deductibles. That was about the time when our 2nd child was diagnosed with T1D.

When ACA passed all CA guaranteed issue small business plans disappeared and everything switched over to marketplace. Silver plans for $2,000/mo for the family and $2,000 deductibles with $12,500 our of pocket max. Basically every spare penny went to healthcare, and then some, and we were slowly drowning in debt because of it.

Finally, I stepped off the treadmill, stopped taking a salary, and we switch to Medicaid. And went from spending $35,000/yr out-of-pocket after tax on healthcare to spending $0.

ACA unquestionably increased premiums and total cost for my family substantially, until I stopped taking a salary and went on Medicaid at which point ACA was a god-send due to Medicaid expansion / cost-sharing reductions.

For a healthy family of 4 ACA is horrifically expensive and acts as an extraordinary tax on middle class families who start earning too much for the subsidies. The marginal effective tax rates are so high, the CBO doesn’t have the guts to publish them with the ACA subsidy phase-out included in the calculations.

Re: A Glimpse into the Bureaucratic Hell of Denying Health Insurance Claims

#119
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the whole point of health insurance! This is a serious misunderstanding of what insurance is. Insurance is a net benefit for society because it linearizes individual risk curves even if you have to pay in proportionally to your expected costs, not because it makes less risky people subsidize more risky people. Perhaps you should avoid calling people “stupid” for misunderstanding insurance.

And by what mechanism does insurance linearize individual risk? The fact that if I get cancer, it's less likely to bankrupt me. But if it's not bankrupting me, someone else is paying for it. Who's paying for it? Someone who didn't get caner. So how is this not "less risky people subsidizing more risky people"?

Let's say your odds of getting that cancer are 5% and you know that ahead of time. So, knowing that it would bankrupt you, you gather 20 other people who are also at a 5% risk of getting cancer to form a group where you all chip in no matter who gets sick. You've now spread the risk out across a pool of people and, yet, everyone is still paying their fair share because no one knows who will be the unfortunate cancer patient at the time the agreement is made.

But in your little group, there's still a 36% that no one will get cancer and that's offset by a small chance that multiple members of you group will get the disease. If even 4/20 members get cancer, that would now come pretty close to bankrupting everyone in the group. So what do you do? You increase the size of the group and lower the chances that no one will get cancer while also increasing the chances that only a proportional number of people (5%) in the group get the disease.

But then along comes Danny. We also know that Danny has a 10% chance of getting cancer. He also wants to join our group. If we just let him join, it won't be fair...after all he's twice as likely to need us all to pay for him. So we can either tell him to get lost, or we can just make sure that when the bills for someone's cancer show up, he pays twice as much as any other member. He's bringing twice the risk with him so he pays twice as much.

In poker, players learn to avoid being outcome-oriented when evaluating their decision making. Rather than looking at a decision they made and seeing whether they won or lost, it's more important to look at the decision and ask themselves if they'd made the same decision a million times, how many times would it lose and how many times would it win. Because any individual hand where a correct decision is made can still lose due to variance.

Insurance is the same concept. Actuaries use statistical analysis to determine an individual's risk so insurance companies can price that risk accordingly. Over a million lifetimes, your insurance premiums (less the insurance company's profits) would come very close to the overall insurance payouts. But since you've only got the one life, you'll be under- or over-paying. But you're still only paying for your own risk, you're not paying for anyone else's risk.

Where the ACA comes in is when Danny can't really afford the double stake. It forces us to let him join the group and pay less than double whenever someone gets cancer. That's a bad deal for all of us 5%ers, despite the fact that there's still a 90% chance that Danny doesn't get sick.

Now try to answer your question...do you see the difference between paying for your own portion of the risk pool vs lower risk individuals subsidizing higher risk individuals? If you were in one of those groups of 5%ers, would you just let Danny join without adjusting for his added risk or would you be looking for more 5%ers like yourself?

Re: A Glimpse into the Bureaucratic Hell of Denying Health Insurance Claims

#120

This story is couched in terms of how bad things were before Obamacare, but I’d like to point out that things aren’t great now either. To prevent Obamacare from bankrupting them, insurance companies are resorting to legally dubious mass-denials, one of which affected me personally. A few months ago, I woke up the next morning after eating some fast food and began vomiting. I couldn’t stop throwing up, and I couldn’t…

It's interesting that you mention that. I have Blue Cross, and I've been dealing with seemingly procedural denials every month for a chronic condition.

It's getting to the point where I'm genuinely thinking there is some bad faith activity going on.

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