Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction' • Hacker News Board

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#111

Post by kuschku » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:27 PM UTC

kodis wrote: post #110

kuschku wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simply said, economics. This is a winner-takes-all problem, nothing short of banning US media and forcing creation of a local media industry will be able to do that.

I don't really see it as a winner-takes-all situation. Here in the US my wife and I both enjoy many of the BBC productions, the 'Brit-com' comedy shows, and have noticed that a significant percentage to the actors even in US produced shows are from the UK or Australia. It seems that there's plenty of room for good programs no matter what their country of origin.

How many German productions have you seen? How many French?

Germany and France each produce just as much or even more content than the UK.

Yet, none of this content ever leaves the country. British content can directly be sold on the US market, which means they can get much more money from those licensing deals to finance more productions.

The only situation where German or French productions show up internationally are nature documentaries (many of the documentaries the BBC or PBS show are produced by Germans, or as cooperation).

The English-speaking market is so large that English productions always have an advantage, and US productions even more. A US production reaches 300 million people in its home market, and a billion globally. A German production reaches 80 million in the home market, and 130 million globally.

And that's without the venefits hollywood has from having all the actors, staff and technology in one place.

This battle has been decided long ago.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#112

Post by curun1r » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:27 PM UTC

intopieces wrote: post #101

curun1r wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the debate over English superseding other languages to be somewhat comical. On the one hand, sure, there are parts of different cultures being lost. But they're being replaced by possibly the best example there is of a language evolving over time due to power dynamics. The accusation is often leveled against American cultural imperialism. But the language being imposed isn't a Native American language...it isn…

>But they're being replaced by possibly the best example there is of a language evolving over time due to power dynamics. Why does the power dynamic of the language speakers (and therefore their linguistic dominance) provide a counterbalance to the loss of culture? That is, why do you specifically value one over the other, and in what sense is this comical?

It's not that I value one over the other. It's that I observe a dynamic that has persisted throughout human history and see people trying to fight it. Why is right now the time that we should "freeze" language adaptation to save culture? If that's the perspective, why aren't we also trying resurrect Ancient Egyptian language to preserve that culture as well?

Growing up in an area with rip tides, it was always drilled into my head that if I got caught in one and started getting dragged out to sea, I shouldn't fight it. Instead, I should swim parallel to shore until I'm out of the current and can more easily swim back to shore. Just like a rip current, language adaptation due to power dynamics is a reality. You can either accept that and try to make the best of that situation or you can put up a futile resistance.

There's no value system at play just like there's no value system in gravity or rip currents. They're just facts that you accept and integrate into whatever plan you're making.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#113

Post by notahacker » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:27 PM UTC

_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #83

powercf wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know that the English language doesn't originate in America, right? Of course, but it's not relevent. > I see the spread of the Spanish language a step in the Peruvianization of the world, which is a shame. Peru isn't driver of Spanish-speaking culture the way the US is the driver of English-speaking culture. TV shows, music, film, technology news and discussion websites, …. Most are US-made, and go hand in han…

There are an awful lot of English-native and English-speaking Commonwealth countries (including the UK itself) which have non-negligible influence, including on the US.

Hell, us Brits even get to apologise to the US for selling them the TV-show format that got their president elected ;-)

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#114

Post by Mediterraneo10 » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:34 PM UTC

pacaro wrote: post #41

personlurking wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, trying to learn the language of the country you’re in when everyone speaks fluent English kind of sucks exactly because everyone will just switch to English instead of let you practice. I suppose that’s the rub: to a local, when they notice you speaking (or, rather, trying to speak) a foreign language in a their country, are you struggling or trying to practice?

I’ve often heard this, it’s never been my practical experience. If after the other party switches to English you either persist in their language, or ask politely if you can continue in their language, everyone I’ve ever encountered has been happy to help me stumble on

There are countries where either persisting in the local language or asking nicely, will meet with a negative response. Take the Netherlands, for example, where 90% of the population is said to speak English now. A foreign novice–intermediate learner trying to practice Dutch in everyday situations is likely to be told “Let’s just speak English and not waste time.” Your attempting to persist with your less-than-fluent command of the local language is interpreted by your interlocutor as disrespect for his time. If you want to learn the local language, you are expected to place the burden on your language teacher, not random shopkeepers etc.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#115

Post by jacobolus » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:34 PM UTC

curun1r wrote: post #93

powercf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is that, as time goes by, English use will become more common, and Icelandic less. The spread of the English language (e.g. the children in the article who '“know what the word is” for something they are being shown on the flashcard, but not in Icelandic.') is accompanied by the spread of US culture (TV, film, music). While US culture isn't neccessarily better or worse than any other, I get a lot of enjoym…

I find the debate over English superseding other languages to be somewhat comical. On the one hand, sure, there are parts of different cultures being lost. But they're being replaced by possibly the best example there is of a language evolving over time due to power dynamics. The accusation is often leveled against American cultural imperialism. But the language being imposed isn't a Native American language...it isn…

> Germanic and Norman conquests

Whether there was an Anglo–Saxon “conquest” per se is a controversial and fairly interesting historical question. Wikipedia has a summary:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_settlement_of_Brit...

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#116

Post by lopmotr » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:36 PM UTC

Oh no, not another save-the-language story. As with all of them, it takes for granted the assumption that it needs saving but doesn't explain why beyond "cultural heritage". Why do people need to persist the same culture as their parents and grandparents? Whatever good that does should be more than the cost of learning it and using it everywhere. Does anyone know what the good of maintaining a little-used language is?

In my country we have a similar issue except the local language was artificially revived from dead so there's no or almost no unbroken chain of native speakers. There's still debate about how some (English) letters are supposed to be pronounced. They've added useful words, then changed them to sound more authentic. Eg days of the week used to be transliterations from English but now they're references to various native Gods and things. The whole concept of a week didn't exist in the original culture so how can authentic day names exist at all?! It's a big effort with no justification.

It leads to things like this gem of nonsense in an code of practice for electrical work:

"From a Maori perspective, the term “earth” or Papatuanuku translates as Earth Mother – the source of all energy. When aligning this concept to the flow of electricity, a useful parallel can be made to the 3-pin plug."

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#117

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:36 PM UTC

kuschku wrote: post #111

kodis wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see it as a winner-takes-all situation. Here in the US my wife and I both enjoy many of the BBC productions, the 'Brit-com' comedy shows, and have noticed that a significant percentage to the actors even in US produced shows are from the UK or Australia. It seems that there's plenty of room for good programs no matter what their country of origin.

How many German productions have you seen? How many French? Germany and France each produce just as much or even more content than the UK. Yet, none of this content ever leaves the country. British content can directly be sold on the US market, which means they can get much more money from those licensing deals to finance more productions. The only situation where German or French productions show up internationally…

> How many German productions have you seen? How many French?

Quite a few French, actually.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#118

Post by icebraining » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:38 PM UTC

meheleventyone wrote: post #39

nickpeterson wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it would be especially difficult with children, since the English version tends to be the 'real' version. As such I would assume songs to just be more natural in english, and that tends to be the part children obsess over. I'm from the US, so I have the same problem from the other perspective, "Why learn a language when everyone speaks English." So you get a bunch of children who don't want to become bilingua…

Isn’t Spanish a globally important language as well?

In number of speakers it is, but parent talked about the economy, and Germany alone has a GDP of almost 70% of all the nations with Spanish as their official language combined.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#119

Post by SEJeff » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:41 PM UTC

ascorbic wrote: post #104

powercf wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know that the English language doesn't originate in America, right? Of course, but it's not relevent. > I see the spread of the Spanish language a step in the Peruvianization of the world, which is a shame. Peru isn't driver of Spanish-speaking culture the way the US is the driver of English-speaking culture. TV shows, music, film, technology news and discussion websites, …. Most are US-made, and go hand in han…

They'll also probably listen to Ed Sheeran, One Direction, Adele, watch Top Gear, Doctor Who, Downton Abbey, Bake Off, read Harry Potter. The US might be dominant, but it's the English language that's the global hegemon.

This so much! This was literally my point! The English language != America, and I say this as a born and bred (slightly unhappy with our buffoon in chief) American.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#120

Post by diplocorp » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

smnrchrds wrote: post #85

thefounder wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think?

I imagine it would be latter, but I am not sure, hence my question. I have little knowledge about Iceland. I know for example in Quebec outside of Montreal, everyone assumes you speak French, regardless of your ethnicity.

I think most Icelanders, including myself, would start off conversing in English as a matter of courtesy; it would be rude to assume that a person of an ethnic minority isn't Icelandic based on their looks. A lot of times they are indeed Icelanders of ethnic minorities, and you avoid a situation embarrassing for both parties, and perhaps make them feel more welcome in the country they were born in.