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An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

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Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#111
post #78
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your first point, yes exactly. The interview is as much mine as it is the candidates. Not necessarily hiring to complete tickets as fast as possible, but some who can take a task and complete with minimal issues. I don't want to be stuck in meetings or arguing in PRs etc.

Would you really want someone to take a task and complete with minimal issues if the task does not add value to the organization or is counterproductive? I don't know about you, but I would not want to hire someone who can take any task and complete with minimal issues. Where I work, one is encouraged to argue about what is not right in the meetings and offer better solutions. This candidate is doing exactly that: Ar…

This is really taking it to an extreme. Just because you don't fight back against some entry test doesn't mean you won't fight the important things.

> I don't know about you, but I would not want to hire someone who can take any task and complete with minimal issues.

Sorry, I don't want to work with a bunch of pedants. You can have them.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#112

Honestly, HackerRank is a pretty standard and easy test. I really think it's a reasonable test, at least more reasonable than some. I've been given much harder take home tests: https://austingwalters.com/you-are-given-a-deck-containing-n... However, HackerRank is just a screen on: 1. Are you going to be difficult 2. Do you have basic coding skills Typically, I'd interview at least 10 people before I'd give an offer.…

HackerRank isn't a test, it's a platform for testing; individual employer tests on that platform can be more or less reasonable.

Alright fair, I intended my meaning to be "HackerRank type of assessments - limited time, basic, etc."

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#113
This tells me that author was never involved in recruiting people. He may be smart (even exceptionally so) but that can only be validated through a direct interview. However since a lot of people (and I mean A LOT) cheat in their CV and even GitHub portfolios, getting upset over "show us that you can do anything" minimal bar test is something I'd rather not get in my mailbox. It's polite and well worded, that's true, but shows that he doesn't understand the realities recruiters are facing. I'd respond to his mail explaining why these tests are mandatory but inevitably I'd have to treat him like a child that faces the world for the very first time. I guess he should ask himself: do you want to be treated exceptionally throughout the recruitment process? If you think you're that unique, you're probably wrong (and that level of detachment from reality isn't looking good).

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#114
There are very, very many comments here accusing HackerRank and/or puzzle/algorithm problems in general of being poor tests for how good a programmer someone is, or that people who use such problems just want "robot" workers to churn out meaningless code.

These comments are completely missing the point. HackerRank's value is as a screening process. The point of such problems in the early phases of an interview is not to find out how good a programmer you are, but how bad a programmer you are.

There are an ASTOUNDING number of candidates for programming jobs who can barely code. FizzBuzz eliminates a lot of them, but sometimes you need something just a bit more difficult. That's where HackerRank comes in.

When talking to people that are "professional programmers actively seeking work" I find that the majority of them can't do simple tasks. "Simple" isn't meant in an arrogant way, either; examples include reversing an array (with no space constraint), iterating a dictionary/map (regardless of understanding map implementation, a lot of people don't understand that iteration order isn't predictable), and basic use of nested lists/non-scalar data structures. Those aren't esoterica that "nobody uses" on a daily basis, they're bread and butter of programming work.

These people have hobby projects/OSS work, it's just . . . not sufficient, in many cases, to indicate basic competence on the job. I don't know why that doesn't correlate. I don't think most of these people are lying and publishing work that isn't theirs. It might be that they have a very long time to write the stuff in their GitHubs or whatever and can't do basic things in a hurry otherwise. It might be something else. Regardless, they turn out to be unqualified when tested on the basics.

If you find the problems insultingly easy, choke it down and consider it equivalent to the question of "are you comfortable being asked to show up to work on time?"--patronizing, but an easy box to check, and not meant for you.

There are companies that rely entirely on very hard/complex algorithms problems for interviewing, with the full knowledge of what they're testing for and why they're using those tests. I'm not talking about those companies; there are good and bad reasons for doing that. I'm talking about simple coding challenges presented early on in the candidate's process.

There are also companies that get confused as to what they're using the HackerRank-equivalent tests for, and give really hard problems (or, worse, puzzle problems that block all progress and rely on some sort of "gotcha" trivia knowledge to even approach), but evaluate candidates' performance as if those problems were FizzBuzz++ basic competence screenings. That's a mistake, but also not what I'm talking about here.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#116
One the one hand, I agree about the mismatch between hackerrank and engineering skill. On the other, I also suspect there are many engineers who can code amazing personal projects who lack the motivation/communication to handle the kinds of maintenance tickets you'd likely see in a mediocre codebase for a noname b2b (or whatever the job is).

I tried to build my own coding test that is based on refactoring based on changing requirements: https://alexrohde.com/public/zennish/index.html#/challenges

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#117
post #67
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...If "Tells me when I'm doing something in a way that could potentially be improved, in a polite, validated way" falls under your definition of "Difficult to work with", then perhaps he wouldn't want to work with you anyway. However if you want to hire people to just complete tickets as fast as possible, maybe that's a valid reason to reject the candidate.

"Difficult to work with" is perhaps too harsh a statement. But the candidate is asking for a completely custom treatment at the earliest possible stage of the interview process. The candidate is also assuming that the interviewers aren't aware of the caveats mentioned about standard coding screens/HackerRank exercises. The candidate's proposal also doesn't mirror real-world conditions, because I doubt the job consist…

> just a low-investment screen

Low-investment on the part of the employer. They still expect me to spend 90 minutes on proving I have seen a REPL before, which is time I, frankly, don't have. I'm happy to answer/talk about things that relate to my job, but working on puzzles that just happen to be solved more easily by programming has exactly nothing to do with it.

> the candidate is asking for a completely custom treatment

What's next? Having to actually look at someone's CV? That's insanity.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#118
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am responsible for hiring developers, and I do find online programming tests very useful. They serve as a relatively simple early-stage screen for applications from people we've never met. Ours costs each candidate 1-2 hours. But we do not require cover letters, which in the good old days might have taken about half that time, and been thrown in the bin. Some may think no CS graduate would fail a test that let you…

If you don't mind sharing, what size company and how often do you hire devs? >Some may think no CS graduate would fail a test that let you choose any popular language to implement some basic string parsing. I don't see anything wrong with basic screeners like that, but I have experienced some really silly stuff. Recently I was given a test that asked ~10 questions (some trivia, some paragraph type response), a few sm…

45 person office, hiring developers gradually and continually. But what I wrote also applied when I was at a 6 kiloperson firm and we hired a hundred developers a year.

Some tests will seem impossible to complete in the alotted time. Often that's intentional. It saves time for the candidates and gives a better spread of scores (very few will get 100% in some test batteries). But it can be disheartening. For these initial online tests I try to give enough time that most people won't really run out of time unless they get stuck.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#119
post #8

You want a personalized interview, styled exactly for you ? I would be a 'no' if i were interviewing me. You obviously can program but this makes you appear to be someone who would be difficult to work with.

Interviews are a 2 way street. Candidates have as much right to evaluate the companies that are trying to hire them as the opposite.

Not the OP but, absolutely I want a personalised interview! I want the company I'm working for to care about the people they hire -- not to efficiently fill empty seats. Yes, normally that means I tend to work for startups. I'm happy with that.

It's fair to say that you want to be able to evaluate potential employees cheaply before you invest a full interview. It's also fair for people to offer ways to do that evaluation rather than running through someone's maze. Neither side needs to accept the other's offer, but there's no need for either side to take it badly.

A "no" is quite a good result if the company would otherwise be wasting the candidate's time.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#120

This tells me that author was never involved in recruiting people. He may be smart (even exceptionally so) but that can only be validated through a direct interview. However since a lot of people (and I mean A LOT) cheat in their CV and even GitHub portfolios, getting upset over "show us that you can do anything" minimal bar test is something I'd rather not get in my mailbox. It's polite and well worded, that's true,…

> getting upset over "show us that you can do anything" minimal bar test is something I'd rather not get in my mailbox

A minimal bar test shouldn't take 90 minutes. If you want a test like that, ask a FizzBuzz question, which is solvable in ten seconds and will be just as good a discriminator. Asking people to basically solve riddles isn't productive.

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