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OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble

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Re: OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble

#111

Post by tonfa »

jedberg wrote: post #97
bahmboo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google maps does update route in real time. They also integrate Waze data since they own them. Waze was taking heat for routing onto residential side streets which makes me wonder if Google is taking a softer approach. Interesting that you mapped your route with Google maps and Waze at the same time and compared them. I'll have to give that a shot.

They update in real time, but Waze predicts traffic, which is better. For example, in the Bay Area, if you are coming from Sunnyvale and going to Berkeley, you could go up the peninsula side or the east side. GMaps might tell you to take the peninsula route, because right now, the bridge is clear. Waze however will predict that the bridge will be crowded in 40 minutes when you get there, so it will take you up the ea…

Did you actually do the experiment recently?

I'd be surprised if gmaps doesn't do the prediction you describe (I used to be in a sister team of the team doing traffic prediction).

Re: OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble

#112

Post by ris »

pornel wrote: post #53

I've tried to build an open check-in app based on OSM data, and I've ran into many of the problems mentioned in the article: • Tags and relations are a total mess. There are many different and overlapping schemes. There is obviously outdated/sub-standard data, but automated fixes are forbidden. There are some neat tools to make sense of the tag data, but ultimately I had to deal with all that mess and complexity on m…

> There is obviously outdated/sub-standard data, but automated fixes are forbidden.

Please consider arms race encouraging automated edits would begin. A lot of people have a lot of awfully different views about how map data should be recorded (you thought source code formatting was contentious?)

> I couldn't expose an Add/Edit/Fix functionality for my users.

Lots of tools have managed this.

> if I wanted to let my users upload a photo of a venue, there was no service to store it

No. That's not what OpenStreetMap is. They aren't there to give out free image storage.

> The API returns only nodes entirely within an area

Yes, it's meant to be a low-level API which makes few assumptions about the meaning of any of the data. For the ability to make more complex queries you could have looked at Overpass. And possibly there is a space for a third party service to provide an API with such an ability. Again, I don't see that as OSM's business - OSM here should be considered more like the UN.

> There was free building data available for areas I was interested in, but I was told to copy them by hand.

And yet NYC have managed somehow to get most city building data into OSM, so perhaps you haven't investigated every possible option for getting what you want here...?

Re: OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble

#113

Post by tonfa »

dfox wrote: post #64
SippinLean wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought GM used all the Waze data in their routing ever since they acquired Waze?

They do not and in fact technically can not, because the underlying map data is different between google maps and waze.

Were you objecting to "all of waze data"? Because otherwise your statement seems pretty strong without references.

Technical issues can have solutions :)

I guess someone motivated could run some experiments and try to figure out what is actually shared.

Re: OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble

#114

Post by aspirin »

lucb1e wrote: post #100
aspirin wrote: post #38

Im my opinion the biggest problem is the data model (or lack of). Tags i.e. key-value pairs are used to add properties to geometry. Mappers use different combinations of keys/values to describe the same thing. The post touches on this, but does not offer solutions other than adding "layers". There should be a strict schema that would be community managed through some process.

Like what, tag proposals where people vote yay or nay? We have those. As an active mapper, I very rarely find two ways of tagging the same thing, so the process seems to work fine. And if you do find a situation where there are multiple options, it takes only a quick check on taginfo to find the more commonly used one. If you go with that, it should converge soon.

Currently there is nothing to stop mappers using tags in wrong ways. It should just be flat out impossible. If a field/tag isn't defined in the schema, it could not be used. The range of values should be limited in the same way, too.

Re: OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble

#115

Post by maxerickson »

aspirin wrote: post #114
lucb1e wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like what, tag proposals where people vote yay or nay? We have those. As an active mapper, I very rarely find two ways of tagging the same thing, so the process seems to work fine. And if you do find a situation where there are multiple options, it takes only a quick check on taginfo to find the more commonly used one. If you go with that, it should converge soon.

Currently there is nothing to stop mappers using tags in wrong ways. It should just be flat out impossible. If a field/tag isn't defined in the schema, it could not be used. The range of values should be limited in the same way, too.

How does a schema stop someone from marking a building as a pond?

Re: OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble

#116

Post by sampo »

lucb1e wrote: post #101
SteveCoast wrote: post #85

I'm the DRI for most of these problems. Random thoughts: I think David Ogilvy said something like "Search all the parks in your city, you'll find no statues of committees". Everyone was super keen to make OSM in to a web of committees, and this is one root of the problem from an organizational point of view. It's not super clear to me what the OSMF has done in the last (to pick a number) 5 years. (I don't regard "doi…

> I'm the DRI All I can find is "Dietary Reference Intake" on https://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/DRI -- what do you mean? (I agree with most of your post by the way (except for the bit about it being art, which would mean it has no function except to be art), I'm just unclear on what you meant here.)

> All I can find is "Dietary Reference Intake"

Not useful in this case, but acronymfinder.com gives 60 possible meanings. Also the intented meaning as 54th down the list.

https://www.acronymfinder.com/DRI.html

Re: OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble

#117

Post by ris »

FWIW I don't really think any of these problems are "new" and don't think OSM is truly in any more trouble than it's ever been. And as many tensions as there obviously are in OSM, it hasn't stopped us getting pretty damn far. And if anyone thinks that OSM may be stagnating I would suggest getting involved in improving their local area (it's not hard!) and I think they will quickly find out for themselves.

Re: OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble

#118

Post by juliendorra »

btilly wrote: post #106

Here is my experience. I work for a company that syndicates location data for businesses. We had a couple of businesses that wanted to syndicate to OSM. It. Was. A. Nightmare. We have addresses for every store. We don't know where the building is. Any store we place is going to be easy to place on a street near the building. If you've not placed it inside of the strip mall on the right spot, other people delete it. A…

Are you complaining that OSM contributors rejected wrong or imprecise location data about your client’s stores?

If you are, I would like you to also consider this from the point of view of (maybe volunteer) contributors who prefer less data but correct data in OSM. Maybe draw a parallel with Wikipedia where a page that is not up to the standards might be deleted.

(Not a contributor to OSM myself, but I have helped the French Drupal community and cofounded the Museomix community. Also, I appreciate precise data in OSM)

Re: OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble

#119

Post by ris »

pbowyer wrote: post #108
andrewljohnson wrote: post #18

This post seems half right, half wrong. Wrong that OSM should be a service provider and not a database - I think it should be a database, and corporations are good for OSM. The post calls for OSM to essentially become Mapbox. It's insanely expensive to be Mapbox, and Mapzen just failed trying to be a less corporate version of Mapbox. And then the usage policy part of the article is moot or at least not that consequen…

> Probably right: OSM needs layers, or even a more sweeping re-architecture to allow better versioning, moderation, better tooling, and easier understanding of the data. I have a hobby site about railways [0] I'm picking up again after a decade of inactivity. I wanted to display a route map of each railway, with clickable stations and the route highlighted. I can not work out how to do that. OSM has the route and sta…

Investigate Overpass and in particular Overpass Turbo.

And really, any strict layering system in OSM would quickly just fall apart into debates of exactly what belonged in each layer. The range of detail captured by OpenStreetMap users in different areas is really far too nuanced to work crammed into coarse, crude "layer" classifications.

Re: OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble

#120

Post by ptrott2017 »

detaro wrote: post #81
fludlight wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Openstreetmap is better for some things already Such as?

Display flexibility: I can pick a rendering that works best for what I want (e.g. optimized for high contrast or print, prioritizing/de-prioritizing specific types of paths, or public transport). If you consider derived maps, there is even more choice, e.g. I can get a topographic map based on it. Usefulness while on foot. In well-mapped areas, OpenStreetMap has every little footpath between buildings, through parks…

Another: dynamic updates - in case of emergencies and disasters OSM data has often been updated by volunteers faster than other sources to reflect the on ground situation. For current examples See:

https://www.hotosm.org/projects/hot_activates_for_multiple_d...

For historic example see:

http://blogs.worldbank.org/latinamerica/4-years-looking-back...

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