German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal • Hacker News Board

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#111

Post by lurker456 » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:14 PM UTC

peoplewindow wrote: post #5

I think if I was creating a new social media website today I'd probably not set up any presence in the EU. The sheer quantity of fines for vaguely specified "crimes" being handed out makes it a deeply unattractive business environment and it seems to be getting worse. I remember when Facebook was new, one of its big competitive advantages was its easy and comprehensive privacy controls. I didn't see other social netw…

The US has software patents. The EU has GDPR. China has rampant IP theft. Russia has corruption. Every large market has peculiarities, it's the cost of doing business.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#112

Post by TomMarius » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:14 PM UTC

mrguyorama wrote: post #104

TomMarius wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh you can, just hit the "power off" button on your device and it'll have zero effects on you.

Except when your friends take pictures of you and upload them. Facebook doesn't need you to have a device to affect you every single day

It's not FB who is in the wrong, they have no control over your friends' actions.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#113

Post by toomuchtodo » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:14 PM UTC

TomMarius wrote: post #81

toomuchtodo wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will Facebook remove all of my personal data and attest to no longer collecting any future data from my online of offline activities?

Dunno man, did you give them your personal data? If yes, then according to the TOS it's theirs. If not, there's no problem.

Where is the ToS you agree to for the involuntary profiles they create of you if you've never used their service?

https://boingboing.net/2017/11/08/involuntary-profiling.html

"Facebook is well understood as being a major customer of third-party data-brokers, who compile huge dossiers on people based on their spending, internet and phone usage, employment history and so on. In addition, Facebook encourages users to upload their entire address books to the system to "find your friends," and users generally don't appreciate that they may be leaking sensitive information, including nicknames, private numbers, and connections to the system.

Facebook mines this data to create "shadow profiles" of its billions of users. These are profiles that are filled with data about you that you have never consciously provided to the system -- data mined from third parties, including your friends, but also those spooky data-brokers. Facebook's shadow profile system was first confirmed in 2013 when it accidentally leaked users' shadow profiles to them along with their own data, something the company says it will never do again out of (ironic) respect for the privacy of the people who provided the data that goes into your shadow profile.

Facebook's shadow profiles are involuntary and there's no opt-out. Facebook has shadow profiles on people who don't use the service. For example, even though I'm not a Facebook user, multiple people have uploaded their address books containing my email and phone number to the system, allowing Facebook to create a profile of my contacts by looking at who lists me as a contact."

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#114

Post by peoplewindow » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:15 PM UTC

manmal wrote: post #70

twblalock wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a list of countries with the most Facebook users: https://www.statista.com/statistics/268136/top-15-countries-... The first EU country is #10, and it won't even be an EU country in a few years. I think Facebook would survive leaving the EU market just fine. I'm sure they really, really don't want to, but they could. Edit: updated link

Leaving the EU would have very strong network effects and is IMO not an option for Facebook. The entry barrier to social networks is so low now that this could trigger a mass exodus in the rest of the world.

Leaving doesn't mean erasing all the profiles. It just means shutting down local corporate presences. It'd suck for the employees but Facebook can run things out of Palo Alto just fine.

I'm not sure what it'd involve for contracts and payments. But many EU firms have US legal presences too. They could easily buy ads on Facebook through their US presence. Multi-nationalism works both ways.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#115

Post by TomMarius » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:15 PM UTC

s73v3r_ wrote: post #105

TomMarius wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh you can, just hit the "power off" button on your device and it'll have zero effects on you.

Or, Facebook could just not do that stuff. Part of the problem is that FB still compiles and uses data on people even if they're not FB users. FB assuredly has plenty of data on you, and uses that as they see fit, regardless of if you've agreed to their terms or not. I would hardly consider that to be 'zero effects'.

Why wouldn't they? It's their business and you have the option of not doing business with them.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#116

Post by throwawaymaroon » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:15 PM UTC

peoplewindow wrote: post #100

lima wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GDPR isn't actually as bad as people claim. The law is actually pretty reasonable. It is the result of years of discussion and deliberation. In fact, privacy watchdogs are complaining that it doesn't go far enough - it leaves plenty of holes. Most of the GDPR is about informed consent, having a valid reason for processing personal data and individual rights. Facebook will do just fine, they had years to prepare a…

How is the law reasonable? It's not even clear what is allowed under it and what isn't. The EU refuses to clarify anything, the only time any decision will be made is by courts, if there's an actual dispute in progress. The rules are so vague that any firm could be argued to be in violation. And the EU acts as judge, jury and executioner. It looks like a way to tax the SV tech firms without needing a treaty change. A…

It's about time things started being unfair to corporations the same way they're unfair towards individuals.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#117

Post by s73v3r_ » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:15 PM UTC

TomMarius wrote: post #87

sveme wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are collecting information about me even without my consent, without having registered.

That's not true. That's the purpose of the cookie law. If you continue to use a website that gives you the notice, you've given consent. You can still use blockers also.

And if someone tags me in a photo?

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#118

Post by ProAm » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:15 PM UTC

Tharkun wrote: post #30

FB have taken out huge newspaper and billboard ads in Belgium, pretending to care about your privacy. They're trying to divert attention from their real privacy issues, by saying "you can choose who can see your stuff".

I'd like it to be "You can choose who can save and retain your stuff"

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#119

Post by TomMarius » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:16 PM UTC

tobltobs wrote: post #108

TomMarius wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope they do. That will mean a lot of lost tax money for the EU (I'm EU citizen btw).

It will only hit Ireland. Thanks to some trickery they only pay 0.03% taxes on their revenue in other EU countries. Wont be a big loss.

Not true anymore (changed last year after the new VAT laws)

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#120

Post by AndrewKemendo » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:16 PM UTC

I'd argue there is no way to properly communicate to the average facebook user how their data is being collected and used in a way that is transparent but not confusing.

For example, explain to someone who is illiterate in technology how the act of you "tagging" your friend in a photo is to offload image labeling work to train a deep neural network to infer your friend's face.

If you radically simplify the issue in line with GDPR by saying something like:

"Whenever you tag a friend in a photo you to help teach our computers to recognize what your friends face looks like"

It makes it seem way more terminator/ominous than it is to the average person.

Ok now do the same thing with all of the nlp, voice etc... data points.

I just don't see how facebook is going to deploy a worldwide education effort on big data effectively.