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So You Want to Compete with Steam

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Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#111

Post by mmjaa »

dataflow wrote: post #105
krapp wrote: post #16

Really, Steam seems to be the closest thing Windows has to an application/package manager[0]. It's almost kind of a shame that it's more or less entirely for games and game development software - something like it with sourceforge/github integration or an API for general purpose Windows installers would be nice. [0]notwithstanding whatever Windows 10 might have, because I still refuse to touch that, but it's probably…

> Really, Steam seems to be the closest thing Windows has to an application/package manager I don't understand this obsession with package managers. You guys really have less trouble with package managers than Windows installers? It was literally just 2-3 days ago I was trying to update Ubuntu and I couldn't, because of some stupid error (I don't remember exactly) along the lines of "libgl1-mesa-glx depends libglapi-…

Those package dependency graphs are there to protect you. Having to route around the protection is precisely why you should use a package manger properly - to ensure you don't end up with incompatible/borked installation of key elements.

No, I do not think Installers are better than package management. By far, package managers are a key factor in system stability.

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#113

Post by mehrdadn »

SolarNet wrote: post #110
dataflow wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Really, Steam seems to be the closest thing Windows has to an application/package manager I don't understand this obsession with package managers. You guys really have less trouble with package managers than Windows installers? It was literally just 2-3 days ago I was trying to update Ubuntu and I couldn't, because of some stupid error (I don't remember exactly) along the lines of "libgl1-mesa-glx depends libglapi-…

Well the problem is it sounds like you are dealing with a proprietary gl package. Which sucks because the package mangers can't do anything about that. Blame your graphics chip provider. You wouldn't have this problem if you didn't give up your freedoms to mega corps (only some snark).

Which of these packages is proprietary? I was doing this in VirtualBox without guest additions installed, and while I used to boot this installation on an NVIDIA system, I don't believe I had any NVIDIA-specific packages on it. Let me know the proprietary package name(s) you think I had and I'll search to see if I had any of them installed.

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#114

Post by dataflow »

mmjaa wrote: post #111
dataflow wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Really, Steam seems to be the closest thing Windows has to an application/package manager I don't understand this obsession with package managers. You guys really have less trouble with package managers than Windows installers? It was literally just 2-3 days ago I was trying to update Ubuntu and I couldn't, because of some stupid error (I don't remember exactly) along the lines of "libgl1-mesa-glx depends libglapi-…

Those package dependency graphs are there to protect you. Having to route around the protection is precisely why you should use a package manger properly - to ensure you don't end up with incompatible/borked installation of key elements. No, I do not think Installers are better than package management. By far, package managers are a key factor in system stability.

> Those package dependency graphs are there to protect you.

I'm sorry, what kind of protection is this that only after trashing my installation Apt decided to inform me that it can't handle the package dependencies?

And on top of that, for some reason you think the only alternative is to _bypass_ the package manager and get an even more borked installation? You don't see a third option?

> Having to route around the protection

which I never did or suggested I should do...?

> is precisely why you should use a package manger properly

and you are insinuating this somehow implies I must be using my package manger "improperly" because... why and how exactly?

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#115

Post by JohnStrange »

dataflow wrote: post #105
krapp wrote: post #16

Really, Steam seems to be the closest thing Windows has to an application/package manager[0]. It's almost kind of a shame that it's more or less entirely for games and game development software - something like it with sourceforge/github integration or an API for general purpose Windows installers would be nice. [0]notwithstanding whatever Windows 10 might have, because I still refuse to touch that, but it's probably…

> Really, Steam seems to be the closest thing Windows has to an application/package manager I don't understand this obsession with package managers. You guys really have less trouble with package managers than Windows installers? It was literally just 2-3 days ago I was trying to update Ubuntu and I couldn't, because of some stupid error (I don't remember exactly) along the lines of "libgl1-mesa-glx depends libglapi-…

I'm changing my system soon and I can tell you that I'm very, very happy that most of my games are on Steam. I remember that manual installation from DVD used to take minutes to hours, and I just don't have the time for this any longer.

Right now, my biggest nightmare are VST plugins. They are in fact the reason why I didn't upgrade my PC from an i7 920 for years. I estimate it will take me at least a week of full spare time use to deinstall them on the old machine and re-install them on the new machine. Steam would make many people a huge favor if they managed to enter the pro audio market, which still comes with their own installers, licensing schemes, DRM, spurious hidden support services, etc. All the bad stuff, exclusively for honest customers.

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#116

Post by lucb1e »

davvid wrote: post #27
krapp wrote: post #16

Really, Steam seems to be the closest thing Windows has to an application/package manager[0]. It's almost kind of a shame that it's more or less entirely for games and game development software - something like it with sourceforge/github integration or an API for general purpose Windows installers would be nice. [0]notwithstanding whatever Windows 10 might have, because I still refuse to touch that, but it's probably…

If you're looking for a package manager on Windows, you might be interested in Chocolatey: https://chocolatey.org/

I've always used Cygwin for installing packages I need on Windows. Unfortunately it doesn't turn it into a proper unix, but it can only do so much under adversarial circumstances.

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#117

Post by shultays »

krapp wrote: post #16

Really, Steam seems to be the closest thing Windows has to an application/package manager[0]. It's almost kind of a shame that it's more or less entirely for games and game development software - something like it with sourceforge/github integration or an API for general purpose Windows installers would be nice. [0]notwithstanding whatever Windows 10 might have, because I still refuse to touch that, but it's probably…

I released a game on Steam, they did some testing for me and gave feedback like

  On our tests we saw that the game does not run if the PC does not have following libraries, check those tickboxes on that page to install them as well
It really is a package manager

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#118

Post by pjc50 »

dleslie wrote: post #22
kgwxd wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one wants a game that requires a "platform", they just don't realize it or care enough to boycott over it.

Gamers love relay servers, NAT punching, automatic updates, matchmaking, friend lists, achievements, community forums, screenshot sharing, streaming and more. Gamers love platforms and what they provide at least as much as they love games themselves.

I think it's only possible to say this now the most hated platform, GFWL, is dead.

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#119

Post by mmjaa »

dataflow wrote: post #114
mmjaa wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those package dependency graphs are there to protect you. Having to route around the protection is precisely why you should use a package manger properly - to ensure you don't end up with incompatible/borked installation of key elements. No, I do not think Installers are better than package management. By far, package managers are a key factor in system stability.

> Those package dependency graphs are there to protect you. I'm sorry, what kind of protection is this that only after trashing my installation Apt decided to inform me that it can't handle the package dependencies? And on top of that, for some reason you think the only alternative is to _bypass_ the package manager and get an even more borked installation? You don't see a third option? > Having to route around the p…

>You guys really have less trouble with package managers than Windows installers?

Yes, because:

>(I don't remember exactly)

There is your problem.

Your package manager prevented you installing something which would have caused instability, and you didn't grok it well enough to understand, and somehow this is the fault of package management?

Did you upgrade your dependency graph before deciding it was all too difficult to understand and use the tool to fix the problem? (apt upgrade && apt update)

apt was telling you something important: you chose to just ignore it because "too confusing" or whatever .. maybe because you grew up on the very poor habit of "just install it and who cares whatever may happen afterwards" of installers?

>_bypass_ the package manager and get an even more borked installation? You don't see a third option?

There is a third option - upgrade your dependencies, try again, and if it persists - remove the offending package and replace it with one that works. That dependency graph is there to tell you: your system may become unstable after you install this.

No such luxury happens with the plain ol' installer methods ..

    sudo apt-get autoremove && sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
EDIT: A simple solution to your problem, only possible with package management:

https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2268104

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#120

Post by dataflow »

mmjaa wrote: post #119
dataflow wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those package dependency graphs are there to protect you. I'm sorry, what kind of protection is this that only after trashing my installation Apt decided to inform me that it can't handle the package dependencies? And on top of that, for some reason you think the only alternative is to _bypass_ the package manager and get an even more borked installation? You don't see a third option? > Having to route around the p…

>You guys really have less trouble with package managers than Windows installers? Yes, because: >(I don't remember exactly) There is your problem. Your package manager prevented you installing something which would have caused instability, and you didn't grok it well enough to understand, and somehow this is the fault of package management? Did you upgrade your dependency graph before deciding it was all too difficul…

>apt was telling you something important: you chose to just ignore it because "too confusing" or whatever

What "it" are you even talking about? I didn't "choose to ignore" anything. I Marked all Upgrades, clicked Apply, rebooted when it was finished, went to see if there were any more upgrades (there were some), tried to mark & apply them, and was greeted with this error. Apt/Synaptic got me into this broken state and couldn't get me out of it. I don't know what story you're reading, but it doesn't seem to be what I've been writing. There was nothing for me to ignore. The error wasn't something I ignored; it was the problem.

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