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James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

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Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#111
post #57
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From his memo: > I’m not saying that all men differ from all women in the following ways or that these differences are “just.” I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. He said exactly that, right there. Why do conservatives…

>preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes I don't think this part is inherently wrong, and could be proven or disproven with well designed studies.

If you can't prove something one way or another, it seems like a poor foundation upon which to build your HR policy, as Damore suggests.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#112
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nowhere in that quote is it stated that women are biologically less capable of engineering.

ability (noun) 1. possession of the means or skill to do something. 2. talent, skill, or proficiency in a particular area.

The argument goes like this: traits are distributed with different frequencies throughout populations (plenty of evidence this is true), those traits may lead to differences of interest and focus in specific areas, and that leads to differences in the frequencies at which we can expect to find members of those populations represented at the top of some fields.

None of this says anything about the abilities of any individual women. There are many excellent female engineers. Nor does it say that these excellent women engineers don't face discrimination because of their gender. All it says is that you'd expect fewer women to be represented in the population of the most competent engineers (in the same way you find fewer men in veterinary fields, for example).

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#113
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it libelous to interpret someones words in a way they don't like?

It is libelous to say that someone said something that they did not say (assuming, as in all cases, that what you say could hurt their reputation in the community). There a spectrum of behavior: one the one hand, there are straight up misquotes—where you attribute a direct quote improperly. On the other hand, there are synthetic statements, where you 'sum up' what someone has said in a distilled way. In this case, TC…

> you probably shouldn't refer to ability instead of inclination.

Maybe you shouldn't, but it ain't libel.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#114
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From his memo: > I’m not saying that all men differ from all women in the following ways or that these differences are “just.” I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. He said exactly that, right there. Why do conservatives…

That is not even close to what he said. Regarding abilities - he didn't say anything about any gender having greater or lesser abilities - he said "different" abilities. He didn't say that biological differences explain the gender representation - he said it may explain the gender representation - which means it also may not. He said that there are differences in the distributions of preferences and abilities of wome…

he said "different" abilities

Are you seriously saying that the meaning I should take away from that quote is that women don't work in tech because of their superior ability?

And the quote we're arguing about, "women may not be equally represented in tech because they are biologically less capable of engineering", also says "may". So it seems you're arguing a strawman.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#115
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From his memo: > I’m not saying that all men differ from all women in the following ways or that these differences are “just.” I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. He said exactly that, right there. Why do conservatives…

Why is suggesting the distribution of certain qualities in men and women are different “repugnant crap”? There is ample evidence that men and women have behavioral differences. This exists across all mammals. I don’t know whether that makes the average man or average woman[1] better at any particular task, but it’s not an absurd hypothesis. Surely it’s worth reasoned consideration, not moral outrage at the very thoug…

Because he didn't just say that. You can't just pick and choose the part of the sentence you want to respond to. You have to accept the entire thing as a complete thought.

e.g. It would be like me suggesting you wrote: "men and women are different 'repugnant crap'". It's accurate, but misrepresentative of what you meant. One is honest, and the other is dishonest.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#116
post #3

From the article: > women may not be equally represented in tech because they are biologically less capable of engineering Why do news outlets persistently misrepresent what he actually said? I've read his memo and just about every news article says it contains claims that it doesn't. I have no view on whether he's right or not, but I remain shocked at the misrepresentation of his views throughout the tech media.

What? Did we read the same memo? One of his central points is that the representation gap between men and women in technology is due to different biological distributions.

From the memo:

> I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership.

Minus a bit of softening language ("in part", "may"), proposing that women are on average less biologically capable of programming is exactly what he's saying.

Also, because I know how HN works, let me pre-empt the inevitable reply to this one: "but what if there ARE sex differences?! shouldn't we be allowed to talk about that!? Freedom of speech!?!"

Scientists who study this stuff (including those cited by Damore) can and do talk about it, and the consensus is that biological sex differences are not that big of an effect, certainly not enough to explain the gender disparity in tech. What effects there may be are absolutely dominated by sociological factors.

Sociological factors that some companies are attempting to counter, which is what Damore didn't like, which is why he issued his complain-y memo to start with.

And THAT is why people are upset with him. Not because he's an amateur biologist with a day job as a programmer who just earnestly wants to have an innocent conversation about sexual dimorphism. It's because he's just another brogrammer whose jimmies got rustled by the thought of women being his peers, and decided to insult (on average) his female colleagues and create a hostile work environment for which he was (quite correctly) fired.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#117
post #88
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google's PR Nightmare? Honest question: Don't you think that the one with the PR nightmare is Damore?

He's beloved by a certain right-leaning or libertarian bent portion of the tech world, and everyone else except for maybe Google's lawyers have forgotten about him. So it seems like he is in a better place now than simply being a midlevel employee in MegaCorp

Yes from a certain angle it's a PR win/win. However if he actually pursues a lawsuit with his money he's with near certainty going to be the loser.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#118
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From his memo: > I’m not saying that all men differ from all women in the following ways or that these differences are “just.” I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. He said exactly that, right there. Why do conservatives…

I don't much like what Damore appears to say but in fairness that sentence does not say "less capable". That he uses "in part" and "may explain" means that it doesn't say much at all while appearing to say something, to me at least.

It appears to me that in part this may be explained by him attempting to cover his ass.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#119
post #18
post #3

From the article: > women may not be equally represented in tech because they are biologically less capable of engineering Why do news outlets persistently misrepresent what he actually said? I've read his memo and just about every news article says it contains claims that it doesn't. I have no view on whether he's right or not, but I remain shocked at the misrepresentation of his views throughout the tech media.

Is the quote you pulled not saying the same thing as this from Damore's memo? > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. Edit: ebbv beat me to it

This quote is speaking about the distribution saying that i might be affected, not that women are in fact less able if they wanted to. For example if more women don't go and study CS, less women will be in CS, thus the general population of women will be less able to practise CS which means that the number of women in cs will be low.

As for the distibution of preferences based on sex. While some might claim that sex does not affect preferences. A Meta-study found robust sex differences in children’s toy Indicating that sex "might" be a factor in deciding factor. The categorical refusal of this claim to the point the mere fact of suggesting that it "might" be true let alone asserting it is taboo, is scientifically unfounded.

source: Study finds robust sex differences in children’s toy preferences across a range of ages and countries http://www.psypost.org/2017/12/study-finds-robust-sex-differ...

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#120
GOOD for you James! Sorry that you have to engage their tactics to get justice or some monetary semblance of it. If the googly buttheadz were as smart as they pretend to be theyd be offering to angel invest in you to create a new platform that'd be the opensourced mega data provider they promised but sold out for "the gods of profits over product integrity!" and as for the buttheads who rape us with their gender insanity,...yeah you read that right! YOURE the problem because you mistake your SEXUALITY with your fn GENDER! You have the right in this country to be as FD up as you wish, but you still dont have the right to Fck up everyone elses rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness !! DATS JUST HOW IT WORKS BITCHES!!!!!! [I'm using that term to describe all you wage slaving idiots sucking off the googly corporate rat trap!] because it fits. IF YOU EXCUSE THIS GOOGLE POLICY BECAUSE "MUH PAYCHECK" THEN YOU ARE* THE FUCKING PROBLEM!!!! HYPOCRITES ALL!
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