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India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

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Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess this is due to the remnants of the good soviet math/science program in schools and universities. Which was originally heavily influenced by Kolmogorov by the way.

And a lack of job prospects in the region. The decent developers have no alternative but to work in the local outsourcing shops.

There is a good number of product companies that have large offices there (Magento, Samsung, GitLab, Wargaming, Grammarly, Ubisoft and a ton more) plus large outsourcing companies pay well and are generally working on large scale serious products

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#112
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they have a weirdly large supply of very competent developers. I've noticed this as well. Very strange that it is so "poor" but so talented. I guess that probably won't last.

It's very far from "poor" when IT industry is concerned :). While pay rate is obviously lower vs US it's higher or on par with most EU countries. So for say Senior Java Dev (the pay is much more dependent on a stack vs US) making 66K - 72K which would be about half of what same person would be making in US (outside of SV), but tax rate will be around 3% vs 30% and cost of living is a fraction of what it is in US. Whe…

70k gross is more than what a senior developer would get anywhere in Germany or France.

If you really get that much, you've got it better than all western Europe, except London and Zurich.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#113

It'll probably get worse for a lot of people. I work in the public sector, in a municipality. Our IT department has been relatively big on the server side, utilizing consultants ever so often to ensure best practices. To be honest I'm not an operations guy, and never have been, but I do work in management and my good friend who heads the IT department is struggling to find new roles for the operations people as we're…

Out of curiosity, how does blockchain come into play with Danish municipal IT?

probably some manager is invested in bitcoin

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#114
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very far from "poor" when IT industry is concerned :). While pay rate is obviously lower vs US it's higher or on par with most EU countries. So for say Senior Java Dev (the pay is much more dependent on a stack vs US) making 66K - 72K which would be about half of what same person would be making in US (outside of SV), but tax rate will be around 3% vs 30% and cost of living is a fraction of what it is in US. Whe…

70k gross is more than what a senior developer would get anywhere in Germany or France. If you really get that much, you've got it better than all western Europe, except London and Zurich.

Yep and Norway has higher pay too but taxes and cost of living kill it.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#115
post #43

Given the number of graduates who join the workforce every year in India, plus the traditional model of companies to maintain a bench for graduate engineer in anticipation of big contracts, the number doesn't look disproportionate. Apart from all the politics and shifting revenue targets (which are the culprit to a great extent), todays technology trends clearly indicates a lot of "high-valued" job are going to be re…

On the one hand you basically say things will change too much too fast: > CBRE predicts 50% of occupations today will no longer exist in 2025 But on the other hand, things don't change fast enough: > whats shall everyone do? skill up . Is that anything new in software development? Nopes These two positions, change and no change, can't be simultaneously true. If there is change, then there are new applications where h…

I'd be curious if the number of full-time paid actors as a percentage of the total population has changed since Classical times. I wouldn't be surprised if it hasn't. (No data. I can't tell either way.)

Medicine has indeed changed. But plenty of other occupations - manual farming, blacksmithing, even full-time life in a religious communities - have all-but disappeared. (That latter "occupation" holding a very non-trivial percentage of the population for at least a thousand years.)

Jobs exist when there's a perceived market for their output. No one is going to argue that today's software dev practices can't be improved and streamlined with AI, or even with dumb automation.

So the lower tier of IT jobs will indeed go. And it will not be replaced by new jobs for those with an equivalent (low) level of talent.

There's actually something like Maslow's Hierarchy of desirable outputs from jobs. On the lowest tier you have dumb musicle, which is easily automated with animal help and then by machine aid. At the top you (probably) have political leadership - not because it's necessarily genuinely productive, but because it's good at making itself appear critically important. Between those extremes you have various layers that rely on different blends of muscle, IQ, original creativity, ability to command resources, people skills, strategic political skills, and persuasive abilities. (...Not an exhaustive list.)

Mechanisation starts low and moves high. Muscle is easier to mechanise than IQ, but a lot of "high IQ" work is repetitive, and easier to mechanise than work that requires strategic political skills and persuasive ability.

Bottom line: it's all vulnerable. No one's job is irreplaceable. Not even the privileged "jobs" at the top of the hierarchy, which are really just pure resource accumulation.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#116
post #5

There will be many more. The India IT sector’s main play was cheap labor for low value-add IT tasks like basic dev or ops. The play a while back was to move day-to-day ops jobs to this cheap labor. Now the play is to automate this work so the jobs are disappearing. E.g when you move to the cloud with good architecture you don’t need tons of people pushing buttons and tweaking servers all day long. The India firms hav…

Might be the case with many IT services firms but assuming that so called home countries brains only can do serious engineering is quite short sighted. I head an engineering team from India and our team is local talent for a firm which is outside India. We believe we do some serious engineering. There is this west fixation that serious engineering can't be done outside. I am not saying it isn't true on most cases but…

Serious engineering can be done outside, sure. But after years of competing with Indian outsourcing, US engineers have really upped their own skills. Sourcing that talent from India isn't cheaper because it's so rare those engineers can demand similar prices to US engineers and still get a job and an H1-B. Without Infosys. Or Tata.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#117
The issue has to do with Institutions & services firms here in India.

It is normal to see IT Engineers (coders) define they career as X programmer where it's now time for every programmer to have full-stack skills and treat programming language as a drill-bit in a tool-box.

Since the services companies benefited earlier by recruiting a graduate and training them to be X programmer for life, the institutions didn't have a reason to adapt to changing times because 99% of their students were placed in these companies and remaining 1 % in Google, MS etc. [Fun note - Sundar, Satya, Shantanu, Sanjay Jha , George Kurian etc. belong to that 1% and yet capable enough climb to the top-most seat.]

But I wouldn't buy the 'Indians not hardworking' stereotype,for an average Indian every opportunity in their life has to be fought for with thousands (some times millions) of other competitors. I've seen several people who were the first graduate from their entire family history while living in a hut and create a sustainable life for them; thanks to these services companies.

But it's time for a change, Institutions should build skills which make their students recruit-able by startups.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These people are mainly relatively unskilled Not only that I agree with that, but I'd like to add the fact that after 2 years of working in a team splitted in Romania and India, the working experience with Indian programmers is relatively difficult. It's not something isolated to an individual, all of my colleagues have been complaining that they would really like to work with someone else, but not from India. I thi…

Google and Microsoft and even trading firms like DE Shaw for example have hundreds of engineers in India. Hiring talent is difficult at smaller outsourcing shops, the economics demands that you hire at low wages. Your perspective is severely limited.

Yep, any Indian with decent would have long run away from sweet shop to go to a software company.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#119

System integration is a proximity job. The last mile of a software delivery. With no physical access to their top market (H1B reform), it will continue to be tough. Capgemini, which has about the same headcount, will end with 30% more revenue than Infosys in 2017. Accenture, x3.4 the revenue for only x2 the headcount. With limited access to market with better hourly rates, they would continue to struggle. Unless they…

Those are entirely different business models - services vs products. Companies aren't always successful in making such transitions.

Infosys, capgemini and accenture are all service companies, re selling employees by the hour. They don't develop their own products.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#120
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very far from "poor" when IT industry is concerned :). While pay rate is obviously lower vs US it's higher or on par with most EU countries. So for say Senior Java Dev (the pay is much more dependent on a stack vs US) making 66K - 72K which would be about half of what same person would be making in US (outside of SV), but tax rate will be around 3% vs 30% and cost of living is a fraction of what it is in US. Whe…

70k gross is more than what a senior developer would get anywhere in Germany or France. If you really get that much, you've got it better than all western Europe, except London and Zurich.

Parent is still in an inflated labor bubble. In most of the US outside of the major cities it can be a struggle for experienced engineers to break 80K. I had to walk away from a lot of hideously low priced opportunities when I lived in the mid-west.
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