Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

blogs.lse.ac.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–118 of 118 posts

Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#111

Post by dguaraglia »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #66
dguaraglia wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this really a new norm, where troll accounts are created to push bigoted talking points? This account is 9 minutes old. The other day I had a similar “interaction” with a 30 minute old account. Who is paying for this campaign?

My account is 1881 days old, and I'd happily say exactly the same as WhirlingBirdz, with zero intention to troll.

And that would've been fine, as long as you provided some context. My comment was based (as I explain elsewhere) on newly created accounts throwing one-off propaganda comments.

Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#112

Post by jstanley »

dguaraglia wrote: post #106
jstanley wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly what was bigoted about that comment?

This comment in particular wasn't super bigoted, but it could bet taken as "the UK needed to leave the EU because of immigration." On the other hand, a comment down the page by the same account seemed to suggest at least they were engaging in conversation not just using a throwaway account. Mind you, when I flagged the comment I was extrapolating based on a similar interaction I had the other day, when a newly create…

The comment didn't even mention immigration, let alone go anywhere near claiming immigration is bad. You shouldn't assume that everyone in favour of brexit is bigoted.

FWIW, I'm in favour of brexit, and I'm also in favour of freedom of movement. In fact, I advocate total freedom of movement: no passports, no visas, no checks. Let free people move freely. If I can travel to Manchester without having to justify myself, why can't I cross borders in the same way? I am in favour of brexit for totally unrelated reasons.

Just because you may have heard that some brexit supporters want to impose stricter border controls doesn't mean all brexit supporters want that.

Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#113

Post by jstanley »

dguaraglia wrote: post #111
ZenoArrow wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My account is 1881 days old, and I'd happily say exactly the same as WhirlingBirdz, with zero intention to troll.

And that would've been fine, as long as you provided some context. My comment was based (as I explain elsewhere) on newly created accounts throwing one-off propaganda comments.

You're discriminating against accounts just for being new, to the extent of flagging totally unprovocative comments, and you claim they're the bigoted ones?

Maybe now you see why people create throwaway accounts when stating these "things you can't say".

Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#114

Post by auxbuss »

unchocked wrote: post #23

Delusions are hard to get rid of. Leave campaigned on lies, voters swallowed them, and the government is now bound to try and live by those lies. Like all delusions, this will continue to entrench itself against reason. When the negotiators fail to reach their delusional goal, the deluded will formulate a conspiracy narrative to protect their delusion.

> and the government is now bound to try and live by those lies.

This is a false assessment. The European Union Referendum Bill 2015-16[0] specifically states:

"This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions."

[0] http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7...

Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#115

Post by Myrmornis »

dguaraglia wrote: post #106
jstanley wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly what was bigoted about that comment?

This comment in particular wasn't super bigoted, but it could bet taken as "the UK needed to leave the EU because of immigration." On the other hand, a comment down the page by the same account seemed to suggest at least they were engaging in conversation not just using a throwaway account. Mind you, when I flagged the comment I was extrapolating based on a similar interaction I had the other day, when a newly create…

You flagged a one sentence, polite, comment, just because you disagreed with its stance on Brexit? That’s a classic example of the pathetic intolerance of modern young lefties. Rather than engage, attempt to delegitimize and deplatform. (Spoken as an anti-brexit liberal myself).

Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#116

Post by osullivj »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #30
osullivj wrote: post #2

Well argued POV. However, the article overlooks the role of the Profumo Affair in ending the MacMillan govt. Another relevant precedent is the EZ negotiations with the Greek Govt over the sovereign debt crisis.

> "Another relevant precedent is the EZ negotiations with the Greek Govt over the sovereign debt crisis." How is that relevant here? The Greek government wanted to declare bankrupcy, but after some initial resistance their own ministers bottled it. They had the power to walk away if they wished.

The Greek Govt wanted to negotiate a restructuring of the debt. That outcome would have yielded economic growth, and real servicing of the restructured debt. But that rational and realistic outcome was ruled out by the political requirement for EZ unity, the need to make good FR & DE banks holding GGBs, and the will to impose Schauble & Djisselbloen's economic views. The parallel is the misguided hope of the weaker negotiating partner hoped that pragmatic realism would prevail over the stronger partners politico-economic agenda.

Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#117

Post by coldtea »

pimmen wrote: post #53
coldtea wrote: post #47

Or, the EU is deluded about its worth in the modern world.

But not about its worth to the UK. The EU is by far the UK's largest market and still has a lot of growth potential (especially in the southern and eastern member states).

They're some assumption here that because of Brexit UK will not be able to export to the EU?

They'll sort it out just fine, just like the EU is trading partner with China and all kinds of countries that are not in the EU.

In fact, the UK not being in the EU could give it extra leverage (on labor laws, taxes, etc) to attract businesses in the ways the EU could not. Like Ireland that got in trouble with EU for its tax breaks.

Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#118

Post by pimmen »

coldtea wrote: post #117
pimmen wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But not about its worth to the UK. The EU is by far the UK's largest market and still has a lot of growth potential (especially in the southern and eastern member states).

They're some assumption here that because of Brexit UK will not be able to export to the EU? They'll sort it out just fine, just like the EU is trading partner with China and all kinds of countries that are not in the EU. In fact, the UK not being in the EU could give it extra leverage (on labor laws, taxes, etc) to attract businesses in the ways the EU could not. Like Ireland that got in trouble with EU for its tax…

No, they will be able to export under WTO rules just fine, with all the tariffs that entails which would favor importing from another EU member rather than the UK. That will hurt the UK a lot, especially the financial services.
Post reply on HN