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Microsoft Moves to End Secrecy in Sexual Harassment Claims

nytimes.com

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Re: Microsoft Moves to End Secrecy in Sexual Harassment Claims

#111
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that marcoperaza and tptacek/rayiner might actually be pretty close to being on the same page here. I don't think(?) that marcoperaza is saying that Title IX courts should have the same rules and procedures as a criminal court. It's acceptable to have a lower standard of evidence and, to a degree, relaxes rules of procedure. Especially if these rule changes are paired with limitations on penalties: as rayiner…

I think pretty much everyone agrees that Title IX went off the rails, right? The dispute here seems, by my reading, to be between two prescriptions for moving forward: (1: Rayiner): The problem with Title IX is one of matching scope with procedural rigor. We don't need to raise the level of rigor to that of a courtroom if we constrain the scope and thus the consequences of an adverse action under Title IX. (2: marcop…

I think there's a fundamental disagreement on the place of the presumption of innocence in the process as well. I'm arguing that it is of paramount importance, and that even though a preponderance standard as used in civil courts is defensible, that standard is hollow without the extremely important procedural safeguards (cross-examination, discovery, counsel, impartial judge, fair jury, etc.) surrounding it, and the understanding that the party seeking to change the status quo still bears ultimate the burden of persuasion.

I also think that colleges are hopelessly ill-equipped to handle most allegations of sexual assault, which are highly-politicized in the current climate and often boil down to he-said-she-said disputes. A judge is very aware of the kinds of reasoning that are unfair to the defendant, such as categorical claims about men or women, or appeals to political ideology.

And finally, I think there is disagreement as to how tolerable erroneous expulsions are. I would rather err on the side of under-"conviction". Rayiner is arguing that it is just as bad to deny the accuser the right to an education free from such hazards, so we should not favor one over the other. I think the right way of thinking about it is favoring the status quo, unless there is compelling evidence to change it.

Re: Microsoft Moves to End Secrecy in Sexual Harassment Claims

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think pretty much everyone agrees that Title IX went off the rails, right? The dispute here seems, by my reading, to be between two prescriptions for moving forward: (1: Rayiner): The problem with Title IX is one of matching scope with procedural rigor. We don't need to raise the level of rigor to that of a courtroom if we constrain the scope and thus the consequences of an adverse action under Title IX. (2: marcop…

I think there's a fundamental disagreement on the place of the presumption of innocence in the process as well. I'm arguing that it is of paramount importance, and that even though a preponderance standard as used in civil courts is defensible, that standard is hollow without the extremely important procedural safeguards (cross-examination, discovery, counsel, impartial judge, fair jury, etc.) surrounding it, and the…

You're restating what I just said. Presumption of innocence is a procedural control. Also: "presumption of innocence" is a term of art in criminal cases. In civil cases, what you have is the burden of proof (which is usually on the plaintiff). And, of course, at law, the word "proof" means something very different than it does on HN.

Re: Microsoft Moves to End Secrecy in Sexual Harassment Claims

#113
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telling some one a sex joke is a not a crime, killing someone is a crime. Edit: Sexual harassment, as such, is not a crime under state or federal law in the U.S. Murder is a Crime. Makes no sense to compare it to murder. apples oranges.

Creating a hostile work environment that constitutes discrimination on sex is absolutely, unquestionably, a federal crime, a violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (see Supreme Court cases Meritor Savings Bank v. Vinson , Ellison v. Brady , Oncale v. Sundowner Offshore Services , etc. etc. etc. - and Meritor and Oncale had no dissents, and Ellison only had one dissent from a justice who felt that the…

> for your own sake, please seek actual legal counsel

Re: Microsoft Moves to End Secrecy in Sexual Harassment Claims

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The Title IX kangaroo courts were a disgrace to America. The accused had no right to an attorney, no right to remain silent, no right to face their accuser. They faced panels, of professors, college administrators, and naive fellow students, that were politically hostile to young men and that accepted allegations as necessarily true. Even in civil cases, where there is a preponderance standard, the burden…

I agree that the university processes are problematic. But the problem isn't the standard of proof. Universities were treating the Title IX process as something with criminal consequences, e.g. metting out punishments for the sexual assault itself. But if you apply civil standards of proof, you can't mete out punishments. You can only adjudicate rights: "which one of us gets to stay?" Title IX proceedings should be d…

> if you apply civil standards of proof, you can't mete out punishments. You can only adjudicate rights: "which one of us gets to stay?"

So you're fine with expelling a student (and likely ruining his life) on the basis of the findings of this 'court', so long as we don't admit that it's effectively a punishment?

> You can't ignore the cost of false negatives in order to avoid false positives.

So you disagree with Blackstone's "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer", I take it?

Erring on the side of 'not guilty' is a cornerstone of civilised justice systems. It isn't 'ignoring' anything.

> if you're being rational, you're trying to minimize SocialCost(false_positives) + SocialCost(false_negatives).

No. Again I refer you to Blackstone's formulation. Your utility function fails to capture the whole picture.

> Setting the burden of proof high to minimize false positives does not minimize the total social cost.

Yes it does. Blackstone was right.

What you are suggesting undermines the legitimacy of the justice system, which brings great costs. It also makes false accusations more likely, as well as more harmful.

It also assumes that a bad outcome is no worse for having been committed by the state, which is not so; it is far worse that an injustice be committed by the state than by ordinary citizens.

Re: Microsoft Moves to End Secrecy in Sexual Harassment Claims

#115
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet youll change your mind if/when you get accused, especially if its false. Guess you should hope that never happens then right?

This makes no sense to me. Especially if it's false? If I'm correctly accused, I hope I get what I deserve! This feels like saying, "I bet you'll change your mind about manslaughter laws when if/when you accidentally run someone over with your car." No, I'm pretty sure I'll be preoccupied by feeling terrible for killing someone. And I understand that false accusations happen occasionally, and I am willing to take tha…

except we designed the justice system so that it's better to let 10 guilty people go than let 1 innocent person suffer

the rest of your comment just sounds ridiculous, hurting the world? im sure you realize not everyone else has the same attitude and arent going to throw away their livelihood because of a false accusation. that's not moral high ground, its just pathetic

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