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Nearly 5M Americans in Default on Student Loans

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Re: Nearly 5M Americans in Default on Student Loans

#111

Post by 616c »

mfukar wrote: post #82
ikeyany wrote: post #62

This did not happen by chance. The answer isn't hard to arrive at--simply ask why college is so expensive compared to the 1990s, and why states cannot afford to offset these costs anymore. America is selling out its future by convincing young people that they should go into debt to pay for "the college experience". But why does "the college experience" need to include superfluous staff and wasteful resources? Follow…

> Follow the money Paint, for those of us with no familiarity with the US system, a picture.

Former university system administrator, let me summarize: US govt style waste but in the private sector, spoiled professors to their credit who are not going to shrink their income after under and grad debt, and obtuse admins overseeing technical and nontechnical projects with zero domain expertise or project management acumen.

Go work in a private uni in the US. You'll be amazed! I worked in a top 20, and on an int'l campus. My very disgusted view of private education is based on 8+ years there.

Re: Nearly 5M Americans in Default on Student Loans

#112

Post by mattbrewsbytes »

Are there any studies that look at the costs of tuition compared to the rise in freely available equivalent information?

I wonder if this is common in other markets where the companies recognize that a lot of their business is commoditized so they keep raising prices to help offset potential losses.

I don't think student loans can collapse like mortgages because there isn't property involved. However, if there is a collapse in higher education in general - a sort of wave where people realize it is not worth it financially and enrollments drop dramatically, that would cause ripple effects in the economy.

Re: Nearly 5M Americans in Default on Student Loans

#113

Post by muninn_ »

anonymous5133 wrote: post #96
phil248 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought college was an outstanding and irreplaceable experience. I still have student debt (pushing 40) and if that debt were tripled today I'd still think it was the deal of a lifetime. Other than some international trips, going to a university was probably the best money I've ever spent.

Easy solution: have two forms of college and let students pick when one they want to go to. Have one system where it is primarily online and low cost. Then have the traditional system where it is physical classes and high costs. Let students decide where to go.

Why even have cost? You can take plenty of courses for free and there's no need for the actual degree. Then you can go learn a trade, and study in your free time if you are so inclined.

Re: Nearly 5M Americans in Default on Student Loans

#114

Post by carlmr »

mattbrewsbytes wrote: post #112

Are there any studies that look at the costs of tuition compared to the rise in freely available equivalent information? I wonder if this is common in other markets where the companies recognize that a lot of their business is commoditized so they keep raising prices to help offset potential losses. I don't think student loans can collapse like mortgages because there isn't property involved. However, if there is a c…

The problem isn't what you learn, it's whether you can show the piece of paper proving you learned it.

I learned most of my undergrad education on my own at home from the books suggested. My education cost me time + the price of the books. However to get the exams, grades and piece of paper in the end, it costs a lot of money.

If we could decouple certification/exams from private institutions, autodidactic people could get their Bachelor's degree almost for free. For Master and PhD degrees I guess the point is more to do research.

Re: Nearly 5M Americans in Default on Student Loans

#115

Post by gbacon »

oliwarner wrote: post #90
japhyr wrote: post #60

I'm a high school math teacher. As part of their high school math education, I encourage all of my students to do one of their projects on analyzing loans. I ask them to pick an item they might take a loan out for, such as a car, a boat (we live in a small fishing town in Alaska), a house, or a student loan. They pick a realistic loan amount, APR, and term length. Then they run the numbers on the loan. I demonstrate…

I think it's hard to absolutely assess the value of a student loan —however predatory— without considering the prospects of having a higher education. Some degrees are worth a dodgy loan. Some really aren't. You could also say that many students wouldn't be in higher education without the loan. That is especially true here in the UK. That might not be a bad thing except that we've gone through an arms race so that ev…

It’s similar in the U.S. people going six figures in debt for degrees that qualify them for $30k jobs is a problem, but that is a dirt-simple ROI analysis.

Forcing nearly everyone into the college-bound track is a huge problem. Politically, vocational training is deemed classist or racist, and such utopianism creates a sad disservice to lots of young people who could be learning skilled trades and setting themselves up for comfortable living.

Just like everyone at the university level is not med-school material, not every high schooler is college material.

Re: Nearly 5M Americans in Default on Student Loans

#116

Post by JoeAltmaier »

gbacon wrote: post #115
oliwarner wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's hard to absolutely assess the value of a student loan —however predatory— without considering the prospects of having a higher education. Some degrees are worth a dodgy loan. Some really aren't. You could also say that many students wouldn't be in higher education without the loan. That is especially true here in the UK. That might not be a bad thing except that we've gone through an arms race so that ev…

It’s similar in the U.S. people going six figures in debt for degrees that qualify them for $30k jobs is a problem, but that is a dirt-simple ROI analysis. Forcing nearly everyone into the college-bound track is a huge problem. Politically, vocational training is deemed classist or racist, and such utopianism creates a sad disservice to lots of young people who could be learning skilled trades and setting themselves…

Sadly, in the US, we don't teach ROI. That comes in your 2nd year of college. Its a trap!

Re: Nearly 5M Americans in Default on Student Loans

#117

Post by ikeyany »

616c wrote: post #111
mfukar wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Follow the money Paint, for those of us with no familiarity with the US system, a picture.

Former university system administrator, let me summarize: US govt style waste but in the private sector, spoiled professors to their credit who are not going to shrink their income after under and grad debt, and obtuse admins overseeing technical and nontechnical projects with zero domain expertise or project management acumen. Go work in a private uni in the US. You'll be amazed! I worked in a top 20, and on an int'…

You've got it. And not only is university more expensive overall for these reasons, but a significantly smaller proportion of tuition/housing is coming from state funding.

When education is treated like a business instead of a public good, the costs get passed on to students from wealthy families or to students who take out massive loans.

Re: Nearly 5M Americans in Default on Student Loans

#118

Post by basicplus2 »

chii wrote: post #106
basicplus2 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ideal finish is.. On death all your debts should be paid in full with the exception that the cheque for the funeral should bounce..

but it's your family member who pays that cheque, not you post humously.

Ah! No.. the payment is made from the deceased's estate..

Re: Nearly 5M Americans in Default on Student Loans

#119

Post by lightbyte »

rectang wrote: post #26

The relief of bankruptcy: only for entrepreneurs, not for students. Another instance of utterly corrupt selective application of theoretically sound conservative principles. Just like "deregulation" and Net Neutrality.

There is a reason for that. If your business goes bankrupt it can be liquidated to settle debts. Once that is done you are left with nothing. The same cannot be done with an education. You can't "give back" knowledge to your school, or sell it to someone else.

Re: Nearly 5M Americans in Default on Student Loans

#120

Post by csense »

ianai wrote: post #2

In the US people can’t clear student loans in bankruptcy. It’s a shame, I think, given the constant upward tick in tuition and lack of resulting careers. They can even go after the students parents.

Most people starting college are 17-20 year old young adults with income and assets far below what would be needed to take out $30K-$100K+ in loans.

Not enough lenders would want to take that risk, unless they have the taxpayer to back them up in case the borrower defaults.

If the borrower's allowed to wipe their debt in bankruptcy, then a lot of students will simply declare bankruptcy as soon as they leave school. The students who play by the rules are burdened with debt, and you're subsidizing people who game the system to their advantage.

The fairest thing to do, then, is either subsidize everybody, and have taxpayer-funded higher education (but that's expensive).

Or subsidize nobody, and let people pay their own way (but that leaves behind students whose families can't afford it).

Or fund the most promising students, and make everybody else pay (but that leaves behind students who don't have good academic record).

Personally I don't like the idea that our society starts its newest members out with a huge debt burden.

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