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The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

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Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#111
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it does suck. You are taking "locals" a bit too literally. It is just a social convention and these are small communities, it is generally understood that unless the property owner has socialized something different, those signs are for mining companies, yahoos from the city, etc. A lot of times if you are not from the area, you can often ask one of the local people the purpose of a sign in some area based on wh…

I'd share your frustrating with mining companies, but is "yahoos from the city" a bit unfair? Your country has brilliant appreciation of the outdoors, including city-dwellers who travel out on weekends or holidays. Signage that informs and guides them rather than bars them might help. I imagine 99% of people just want to pass through carefully rather than dump trash or graffiti anything.

Yes, "yahoos from the city" is a bit unfair. :-) I was living in the SF Bay Area at the time and most of the out-of-town traffic through the area of that property was also from the Bay Area. We made a point of getting to know the local ranchers early on and I had lived in the rural West as a kid, so I had a vague idea of the basic rules.

More often than not, it wasn't that people were trying to behave badly, they were just careless and exercised poor judgement. A recurring annoyance was someone in the Bay Area buying an SUV and deciding to take it off-roading deep into the wilderness with no prior experience and being completely unprepared. In addition to frequently damaging their vehicle beyond drivability or getting it hopelessly stuck far out of mobile phone range, they would tear up the roads and land joyriding, leave gates open, run into the cattle that live in the wilderness, etc. I probably personally rescued people a dozen times who had no business being out there in those vehicles (an SUV off the new car lot is not equipped for that environment), with that lack of preparation, with that little experience.

Not malicious most times, just ignorant and engaging in poor behavior without understanding that they shouldn't be doing those things.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something being blatantly illegal never stopped anybody from taking from the public easement. There's a pretty infamous little county road that the locals stole near Silicon Valley. http://blog.sfgate.com/bicycle/2016/03/22/road-thieves-of-th...

Thanks for that link. I'm just starting to explore the biking roads around here and the history is interesting.

Nice to know that you protect public way just by enjoying it!

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#113

I grew up in Livingston MT just a 20 min drive from the Crazies, I know these trails, and this is one if the saddest things I have ever read on HN. Now I live on the West coast but I miss Montana all the time and visit whenever I can. To be honest, I really can't fathom how terrible things have gotten politically with the likes of the despicably corrupt Zinke and Gioforte. Personally, I watched everything change so f…

You get some rich people from somewhere else who move in and throw all local culture and tradition away. It's happening in Colorado. Every Fourteener (14,000+ foot mountains) used to be publicly accessible but we got some greedy folks who moved in and shut down that traditional access to at least five of them so far. If I ever come into a sizable fortune my plan is to acquire these lands and turn them over to the pub…

"You get some rich people from somewhere else who move in and throw all local culture and tradition away."

In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#114
For those interested in calling their own believes and get a market perspective on public land and private ownership, I highly recommend PERC, The Property and Environment Research Center [1].

They are not evil capitalist but rather passionate environmentalist with a head quarter in Bozeman Montana.

This podcast is quite good with one of the main people from there: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2014/08/terry_anderson.html

[1] https://www.perc.org/

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#115
post #10

Wow. I'm pretty sure the idea of public rights of way as a legal right of access across private property predates the entire US. That's a hell of a thing for the government to try and eradicate for the benefit of private landowners.

The main function of the modern government apparatus is to divide up the commons and parcel them out for private ownership. Coase was just another power-supplicating priest.

Your understanding of Coase is pathetic and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#116

I feel pretty passionately about protecting national land. Are there any recommendations on how to best support it? I don't live near any federal lands and I'm generally don't trust lobbyist groups. Should I be donating to the Sierra Club? Or are there other alternatives?

Other than using the federal lands more _and_ contacting your representatives (via phone!!) to express your support for keeping public federal lands, yes, donate. While your money probably won't be ill-spent with your run-of-the-mill environmental groups, I'd really recommend searching out right-leaning groups that support public federal lands, like the American Conservation Coalition ( https://acc.eco ). Sadly, the…

I don't think 'the right' (whatever that means) has abandoned the environment.

At least libertarians have not.

Check out www.perc.org, these are free market people who are extremely passionate about the environment and they are quite popular and have made great inroads to provide an alternative way of thinking about the environment compared to the leftist big government bureaucracy style of protecting it.

They support great projects like Oregon Water Trust, The Nature Conservancy and do research on how to think in an economically sensible way about these questions.

Here some cool videos, Terry Anderson about Wildlife in Yellow-Stone and about the history of property rights in Montana.

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBcpal2le2Y

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPrzUwl0suM

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#117
post #92
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everything below the high water mark is publicly accessible per Montana state law Huh, does that mean you can legally travel through someone's private property by walking/wading the length of a stream that passes through it? (i.e. the stream is effectively a public footpath?)

I'm not from MT but I believe that is the correct interpretation, similiar to the laws surrounding California coastline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Stream_Access_Law

This concept gets a fascinating and thorough exploration in the form of post-icecap-melt “intertidal” zones in KSR’s epic _NY 2140_. Picture lower Manhattan submerged at high tide. A highly recommended read.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#118

I grew up in Livingston MT just a 20 min drive from the Crazies, I know these trails, and this is one if the saddest things I have ever read on HN. Now I live on the West coast but I miss Montana all the time and visit whenever I can. To be honest, I really can't fathom how terrible things have gotten politically with the likes of the despicably corrupt Zinke and Gioforte. Personally, I watched everything change so f…

I've lived in Livingston for nearly 20 years and I know Alex, and his kids are classmates of mine. This has been big news locally for a while but interesting to see it hit the national wires.

However, I grew up in Scotland where we have a somewhat longer history of dealing with access to land and rich people ;) The solution there is that there is a legal right to access wild land. Note this doesn't just apply to "public land" but all land public or private.

http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/publications/access/full%20code.p...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam

One of the rights lost when folks moved to "the land of the free", it seems.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#119
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd share your frustrating with mining companies, but is "yahoos from the city" a bit unfair? Your country has brilliant appreciation of the outdoors, including city-dwellers who travel out on weekends or holidays. Signage that informs and guides them rather than bars them might help. I imagine 99% of people just want to pass through carefully rather than dump trash or graffiti anything.

Guidance is really the job of the parks services. The problems come when the burdens get thrust upon the landowners.

Elsewhere in these comments are people saying that landowners will remove (public) signage(!), which might impact what the parks people can do?

Maybe a well-publicised term for a private easement that people recognise is treated in a particular way? I like that in the States, National Park means something, BLM means something, etc. Our designations in Australia don't seem as clear. We have Crown land, but I have no idea where to find out about it.

Private easement guides would be: You are a guest here on private land. Don't stray from the road, leave gates as you found them, livestock has right of way, no camping, etc.

Surely there's a balance in making reasonable land access available to people.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#120

I feel pretty passionately about protecting national land. Are there any recommendations on how to best support it? I don't live near any federal lands and I'm generally don't trust lobbyist groups. Should I be donating to the Sierra Club? Or are there other alternatives?

Check out backcountry Hunters & Anglers: https://www.backcountryhunters.org/

They fight to preserve and add to the existing lands.

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