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The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to Stockton, California

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Re: The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to Stockton, California

#111
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's an inflation argument against UBI. If everyone has more money, everyone becomes less sensitive to increases in prices, and therefore prices rise into the new equilibrium. (Increase in demand without a corresponding increase in supply leads to an increase in the price level, in intro microeconomics-ese). Now, the price level may not rise to the exact level where it cancels out the entire UBI, but that's based…

I think you should think of UBI not as "everyone gets $X more" but rather a redistribution of income. The lower half of income earners will in sum receive more than currently while the upper half will have less due to higher taxes.

Sure, but generally the top income earners aren't really in the same market as people with lower incomes. Sure there's indirect impacts, but the housing stock that they pursue is different, they eat at different places, probably shop at different grocery stores... the impact that this will have on their spending will be substantially more muted and difficult to measure in a model as compared to the impact of everyone at (lower income bracket) receiving an increase to their income.

Re: The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to Stockton, California

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Wages tend to (or below) subsistence. // In a pure capitalist system wages [for jobs where there are a surfeit of capable people] should surely tend to zero until enough proles have died to introduce scarcity and buoy the labour price.

Not zero, but you might care to look up David Ricardo's Iron Law of Wages. The basic problem is that labour (as with several other inputs) can for a time operate below its long-term subsistence costs, by effectively drawing down its accrued capital. Doing so results in a net degredation of total productive output. In conditions in which there is a ready supply of replacement labour, this is not a concern of the emplo…

Despite mentioning the "Iron Law" you appear, as I do, not to agree with it as you note wages can go below the level necessary for sustainability.

I mean, you'd work for a lump of food if there were no other opportunities to acquire it, it's that or die in a few days. You'll last longer but not indefinitely.

We have a situation like this in the UK: large companies paying below subsistence wages, the welfare state (and food banks, and other charities) then makes sure those people keep housed and fed meaning the wages can be kept down. Those same companies then are avoiding paying tax; draining the welfare money with their wage tactics and not paying in to the exchequer.

Re: The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to Stockton, California

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I mean is it is no way those targeted programs can be replaced with UBI. If someone is getting 30k of value from an existing or existing welfare programs, cutting it back to 12k removes their social safety net, regardless of the straight cash they get. Worse, if they run out of that, they really have no safety net remaining.

How does UBI take into account mental incompetence, addictions, poor decision-making, bad luck, and bad investments, and where do you draw the line? Don't a lot of welfare payments have strings attached, with regard to what you can spend it on? UBI explicitly does not, so you can use it for anything you want. If UBI did completely replace the social safety net, and someone gambles/fritters away their basic income and…

What is the difference between that and me gambling away my salary? It's not like I will get welfare because I gambled away all my money.

Re: The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to Stockton, California

#114
post #77
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that suggest prices are set by the available cash flow. Which means without other factors if we just lower everyone’s wages to zero everything will be free. Obviously this isn’t the case. Also it completely ignores supply and demand. Under UBI someone will raise their price to take more profit... but then no one will step in and compete because they see an ability to offer the product/service more efficiently. Se…

Prices aren't set by one thing and one thing only, though. Available cash flow definitely plays into the equation, and we can see this at work in a multitude of areas, from the skyrocketing cost of a university education, to the fact that ski resorts charge two or three times the going rate for a cup of hot chocolate (because if you have the money to go skiing, you have the money to pay extra for a hot beverage). Cos…

The ski lodge and state college operate with a monopoly, once youre there you have no other choice of coco vendors. Cash flow has nothing to do with monopoly pricing.

Re: The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to Stockton, California

#115
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by safety nets? If you mean economic need-based programs, so something like "if you earn less than X, you get Y for free", UBI generally assumes the elimination of all such programs, so yes, it does assume cutting other programs. In fact one of the goals of UBI is to replace many complicated welfare trap-generating programs with a single non-welfare-trap one, with the advantage of also eliminating th…

What I mean is it is no way those targeted programs can be replaced with UBI. If someone is getting 30k of value from an existing or existing welfare programs, cutting it back to 12k removes their social safety net, regardless of the straight cash they get. Worse, if they run out of that, they really have no safety net remaining.

Why do you assume people will get less under UBI than they do now?

As everyone gets UBI, at first glance it might seem that the poor will get a smaller piece of the cake, but in reality a person with a good income will just give it back through taxes.

Of course, some specific people might end up being worse off (like a person who gets $30k of welfare), but on average poor people should be better off under UBI. Mainly because they can work and not lose anything.

Re: The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to Stockton, California

#116
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the justification for this is rising housing costs, then giving people free money to pay the high rents is just going to cause housing to be even more expensive. We've already tried this experiment. It's called financial aid for college. Tuition prices just keep tracking federal aid increases. http://college.usatoday.com/2015/08/20/report-federal-aid-ri... If they gave the money as credits to developers to build m…

That's why rent-producing goods are subject to rents taxation. See the land taxes suggested by Smith, Ricardo, and George. Colleges and other shared-expense systems (see also: healthcare, military spending, public spending generally) present and pose other challenges, but they are not the same as the situation as applies to housing, specifically. You don't give builders credits to build houses. You tax them for the p…

Taxes don't solve the problem, they increase it. If costs are too high, adding taxes only increases the cost more.

One can argue that taxation in all its forms, including inflation, is the singular cause of all poverty in the USA-- it is the largest most massive wealth transfer fro the masses to the rich ever. And I don't mean "rich don't pay enough taxes" I mean taxes are stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.

Re: The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to Stockton, California

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why rent-producing goods are subject to rents taxation. See the land taxes suggested by Smith, Ricardo, and George. Colleges and other shared-expense systems (see also: healthcare, military spending, public spending generally) present and pose other challenges, but they are not the same as the situation as applies to housing, specifically. You don't give builders credits to build houses. You tax them for the p…

Taxes don't solve the problem, they increase it. If costs are too high, adding taxes only increases the cost more. One can argue that taxation in all its forms, including inflation, is the singular cause of all poverty in the USA-- it is the largest most massive wealth transfer fro the masses to the rich ever. And I don't mean "rich don't pay enough taxes" I mean taxes are stealing from the poor and giving to the ric…

Not in the case of rents.

That's a key reason they're so markedly different from other goods.

Incidentally, your username and curiosity prompted me to check to see if Hazlitt's infamous little book makes any mention at all of either rents or monopoly. It doesn't.

I find that quite interesting.

https://www.mises.org/library/economics-one-lesson

Re: The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to Stockton, California

#118
post #69

If everyone is getting $500 why wouldn't the landlords raise rents by $500?

Why don't landlords ask you for your salary now and charge that amount for your rent?

They charge what they assume people can pay. So at some point they would know you can pay $500 more.

Re: The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to Stockton, California

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not zero, but you might care to look up David Ricardo's Iron Law of Wages. The basic problem is that labour (as with several other inputs) can for a time operate below its long-term subsistence costs, by effectively drawing down its accrued capital. Doing so results in a net degredation of total productive output. In conditions in which there is a ready supply of replacement labour, this is not a concern of the emplo…

Despite mentioning the "Iron Law" you appear, as I do, not to agree with it as you note wages can go below the level necessary for sustainability. I mean, you'd work for a lump of food if there were no other opportunities to acquire it, it's that or die in a few days. You'll last longer but not indefinitely. We have a situation like this in the UK: large companies paying below subsistence wages, the welfare state (an…

I'd argue that's getting tied up in details to a degree that loses the essence of the mechanism, and the distinction between wages and other economic goods, most especially rents, though also commodities.

The producer of commodities can, provided the opportunity to do so, seek other employment. So long as there is anything that may be produced and sold, they will cease producing some good X at a loss and start producing some good Y for profit. Or move elsewhere, or cease production at all.

If labour generally fails to command a sufficient wage to ensure its long-term survival (or, in extreme cases, short term), there is no alternative employment to living.

You live, or you die.

At best, at the individual level, you can die more slowly. But you'll die all the same.

The problem with living, as opposed to producing or exchanging merchandise, is that it has an irreducible cost, and you've got to meet that no matter what. If businesses take advantage of this, then what is being operated is not a profitable business, but quite literally a charity based on the transfer of wealth from the life-force of the workers (and perhaps the State through various welfare programmes) to the business owners. As you describe.

The key difference between the formulation I prefer (though I don't claim origination, I just don't know its origin) and the more familiar versions associated with Ricardo, Malthus, Marx, etc., is that I see the concept of an accrued labour capital -- health, fitness, skills, etc. -- as well as personal capital of the worker (housing, clothing, vehicles, tools, etc.) which do not have to be be replenlished on an absolutely continuous basis, but which, if not tended will over time degrade.

Moving from the individual to the market level, if there is a constant source of fresh labour then it's possible to "burn out" individuals and simply replace them with fresh young blood. As has been and is practiced throughout history and presently, around the world.

Again, the key is distinguishing various types of economic goods, and their behaviour in the face of market prices, and who it is that does (or doesn't) bear the full costs. I'm not saying this in defence of markets (I believe they allocate prices exceedingly inaccurately much of the time), but in acknowledgement of the observable behaviour. This isn't seeing the behaviour as desireable but as extant.

Again: labour at best returns its costs and those alone. Rents return profit in excess of costs. That is a fundamental inequality of any market economic system.

(The issues of other types of goods and the prices they experience extends the set of problems yet further.)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_wages

Re: The latest experiment in basic income will be coming to Stockton, California

#120
post #63
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you're not giving UBI to everyone. Just the people who don't earn more than UBI level. For everyone else, UBI becomes like the standard deduction under the current US system.

No. You give UBI to everyone. And you also tax everyone’s income, usually with a flat tax.

Ok. So think about what that actually means. You get a payment from the government for $1000 once a month. Then they take $2000 in taxes from your paycheck once a month. Net, you paid $1000 in taxes. For you, it is indistinghuisable from a system where you paid $1000 less in taxes because of lower rates. UBI functions like the standard deduction for your purposes, except insofar as it is refundable if your income and thus taxes owed drops below the UBI level, whereas a traditional refundable tax credit is refundable only after the return is filed, once per year.

You can relabel the account balances however you want, but the underlying economic reality is the same for people earning income taxable above the UBI amount. You are paying more to the government than you are receiving. For people near or right on that level, they simply have an accelerated refund schedule.

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