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Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

maxkle.in

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Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#111

Post by yardie »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #92
yardie wrote: post #22

Is it at all possible to change the title from Europe to Germany. Most of his complaints are German specific and don't apply to everywhere in Europe. Bureaucracy: I've heard regularly bad things about the German bundes. I've heard good things about UK, Sweden, Romania, Hungary. Labor: Whether you get it here or there the price of labor is only going up, but in China it's going up faster. Programmers are expensive. I'…

I've heard good things about Ireland as well. I heard bad things about Hungary (nationalist thugs hunting down gipsies and foreigners). Never heard of the "German bundes" though.

I forgot about Ireland, but I've also heard good things about it. What I hear about nationalists are they are after gypsies, arabs, and africans mostly. But if you have money, they are more than happy to see you.

Sorry I'm not familiar with the German language but I believe "bundes" is what they call their ministries. I have a swiss friend who is an investor and he has plenty to say about the national bank (bundesbank) and the finance ministry.

Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#112

Post by Tichy »

albahk wrote: post #105
Tichy wrote: post #39

"There are so many little ‘unfreedoms’ in Europe" I must admit, China would have never crossed my mind as the country of freedoms. But then, I've never been there. Also, I weigh some freedoms higher than others - I don't like that the Chinese government has the freedom to shoot me...

The odds of being shot by anyone in China unless you are comitting a violent crime is far less IMO than in the US.

So all the death sentences are just for violent crimes? What about free speech?

Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#113

Post by yardie »

hnal943 wrote: post #85
yardie wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the gov't regulation that is the problem but how integrated your job is to your lifestyle. You can't rent an apartment without either having a sufficiently large deposit or having your employer cosign for you. You can't open a bank account without having a job (for example, after arriving in Paris, I walked into HSBC to open an account with 2000€ cash, the manager said I should take it to the post office). F…

Sounds like your opinon on this topic ends up depending on your locale. In America, you can walk up to a bank and open an account with $20 no questions asked. It's been a few years since I rented an apartment, but I only needed an extra month's rent for a security deposit. As far as lawsuits go, that is really more about government regulation. Depending on the what the regulations say, getting sued may or may not be…

As an American it was a shock to me too I asked the bank why I couldn't open an account and the manager said I'd be better served by the post office. The reason I wanted to use HSBC is so that my French and US accounts could be integrated. But because I was working as a bartender I guess I wasn't the type of client they wanted. Here, classism is rampant and if you aren't in the right circles or profession doors are closed.

Also, it's very hard to evict someone. It takes a few years and the other person lives rent free. So your choices are to either put up an incredibly large deposit (+30,000€) or have your company guarantee the contract. In my case I just started a new job when I got my apartment. So I put down 22,000€ deposit. People are nicer when you write large checks :)

As for lawsuits. It's not the suit companies are worried about. But the lawyers fees. Labor law, here, is very exact and certain things have to be carried out before you can be fired. A lot of companies just settle because it's cheaper than what the lawyer would charge. Actual lawsuits are rare. A person intelligent to bring a lawsuit and have the funds to retain a lawyer usually doesn't have a problem finding work.

Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#115

Post by ido »

yardie wrote: post #110
ido wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not French or German. I haven't really heard of the lottery before, and I suspect this is the reason: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa#Winnin... The amortized chance of "winning" over all regions is 1.51%.

It depends. They have quotas for different countries. Think of how many people are applying from your country. Then think of how many people are applying from Mexico, China, India, Guatemala. That is just the means so you have a much higher probability than if you are from a West European country than you do from a developing country.

That's true, but I am not from a western european country :)

Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#116

Post by fauigerzigerk »

yardie wrote: post #111
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard good things about Ireland as well. I heard bad things about Hungary (nationalist thugs hunting down gipsies and foreigners). Never heard of the "German bundes" though.

I forgot about Ireland, but I've also heard good things about it. What I hear about nationalists are they are after gypsies, arabs, and africans mostly. But if you have money, they are more than happy to see you. Sorry I'm not familiar with the German language but I believe "bundes" is what they call their ministries. I have a swiss friend who is an investor and he has plenty to say about the national bank (bundesban…

I don't know why I would do business with nationalist thugs, just because they might not be chasing me this time. I don't think Hungary can have a very favorable business climate on that basis and looking at their economy seems to support that hunch.

"bundes" means something like "federal" I think, so "Bundesbank" would be "federal bank", the german Fed.

Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#117

Post by paraschopra »

apower wrote: post #104
paraschopra wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India has a fairer legal system. It offers a great balance between what Max wanted and what you describe. I'm curious why didn't India come up as an option for Max.

India has it fair share of massive bureaucracy and bribery corruption. Plus the basic infrastructure is rather lacking. You don't want to buy electric generator when you are small.

In all major metros, infrastructure is as good as anywhere in the else. Your argument about electric generator was valid 5 years ago, not today.

Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#118

Post by shadowfox »

mattm wrote: post #45
yummyfajitas wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their educational system focuses more on memorization. Creativity and problem solving are not taught very much. This is going to be a huge problem when hiring programmers right out of university. They will be looking to you to tell them everything they should be doing. Why do you believe this is different than in the US? While I've never hired programmers right out of university, most of the students I taught in univ…

Sure, it happens in the US too. It's just more prevalent in China. When it comes to cultural differences, you can find the same examples in every culture. People steal from their companies in the US too. It's a matter of if these aspects appear more or less than in your culture. At least you were trying to teach them independent thought. Teachers and parents do not do this much in China. The sense of hierarchy and ob…

> People steal from their companies in the US too. It's a matter of if these aspects appear more or less than in your culture

Is stealing from companies so prevalent in china? Has there been studies on this?

Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#119

Post by noname123 »

starkfist wrote: post #51
maxklein wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish this were possible, but the difficulty in doing this is massive. If you are not U.S born, it's QUITE difficult to simply walk in and start a company in the U.S. And you'd spend a lot of time just solving those problems, and have a lot less time to setup your company. In comparison, I landed in china on thursday. Today is monday, and I have a fully furnished office (with furniture I selected myself), an assista…

I wish this were possible, but the difficulty in doing this is massive. If you are not U.S born, it's QUITE difficult to simply walk in and start a company in the U.S. How do all the Chinese/Korean/Indian people in the US do it? I often read on Hacker News about how difficult it is to start a software company in the US. But then I live in Brooklyn and people who don't speak english are always starting laundromats, bo…

The Chinese/Korea/Indian people come here mostly on 12 hr/weekday and weekend indentured servitude via PhD or post-doc program; a few also come on the H1B servitude program.

The FOB immigrants owning stores in Chinatown have either relations to U.S citizens (e.g., uncle, cousins) or they were born in the country and never bothered to try to learn English well (which is fine by me, since I speak Chinese as well).

Also there are quite few bars in Chinatown; they are just in the basement of the restaurants where illegal gambling takes place.

Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#120

Post by jarek »

muhfuhkuh wrote: post #84
3pt14159 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada is a clear win. Set up a corporation in a single day. Fairly straightforward taxes (not the lowest around, but still fairly simple). Technical cities (Waterloo, Toronto, Vancouver, Ottawa). Zero corruption, unless you're in the construction industry, but effectively nothing. Easy employee termination (2 weeks pay without cause, 0 weeks pay with cause). Low occurrence of lawsuits, especially medical, and much s…

To add to the win (and part of the reason why I'm planning to leave the US for Vancouver ASAP): * Tax breaks (such as the federal SR&ED[1]) for high-tech businesses. I believe Vancouver has the largest by province, especially if you're in entertainment technology (like special effects) or video games. * They consider themselves not a melting pot but a mosaic of people; i.e., there is no jingoistic pressure from the b…

Re: third bullet point, it is definitely a big city thing. I haven't seen Vancouver suburbs, but those of Toronto are not substantially different from you would see in rest of North America, though perhaps not as bad as the worst examples.

Hope you enjoy Vancouver!

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