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Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

nytimes.com

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Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#111

Post by thebulgar »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #88
nthompson wrote: post #57

When wolves got reintroduced to Idaho, a few hillbillies went up into the primitive area and stole some pups, and they circulated around as pets. My buddy had one, and it scared the shit out of me. It was 130lbs of killing machine. They could tell it to kill anything, and it would do it. Their neighbor's dog had been biting them, so it was the first to go. Then they'd set it on foxes, which is could run down with eas…

Your story clearly indicates this has nothing to do with it being a wolf. It happened to have a body that was capable of killing, yes. But the owner picked it up and slammed it whenever it misbehaved, and the owner actively encouraged it to kill things. If your parents did that, you would do the same thing. You see this kind of prejudice against pitbulls too. They're some of the sweetest dogs.

I don't know why you're getting downvoted.

Pitbulls, golden retrievers, wolves--all technically the same species. The prejudice against certain breeds of "dog," or against "wolves," is no different from racism.

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#112

Post by [deleted] »

boondaburrah wrote: post #105
Animats wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not one of our domestic animals can be named which has not in some country drooping ears. Neither cats nor horses have drooping ears, except for ones that have serious birth defects or mutations.

AFAIK cats aren't domesticated. It's more that we have a deal with them. They moved in on their own when they realised humans provide shelter if you hunt their pests.

[deleted]

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#113

Post by larkeith »

Animats wrote: post #96
larkeith wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scottish Folds?

Mutation, followed by a silly/stupid breeding program.

"Not one of our domestic animals can be named which has not in some country drooping ears."

It feels disingenuous to exclude breeds based on mutation / selective breeding, as the quote refers to the effects of breeding on domesticated animals, which are by definition going to be mutations of other species.

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#114

Post by sillysaurus3 »

thebulgar wrote: post #111
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your story clearly indicates this has nothing to do with it being a wolf. It happened to have a body that was capable of killing, yes. But the owner picked it up and slammed it whenever it misbehaved, and the owner actively encouraged it to kill things. If your parents did that, you would do the same thing. You see this kind of prejudice against pitbulls too. They're some of the sweetest dogs.

I don't know why you're getting downvoted. Pitbulls, golden retrievers, wolves--all technically the same species. The prejudice against certain breeds of "dog," or against "wolves," is no different from racism.

Pretty much. Imagine what it would be like to be born a wolf or a pitbull. If nature is stronger than nurture, what does that say about our own species? How likely is it that it's impossible to shape a wolf? Dogs came from them. It has to start somewhere; it's not a step function.

It's difficult to explore the question, though.

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#115

Post by JumpCrisscross »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #106
macspoofing wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your story clearly indicates this has nothing to do with it being a wolf How do you figure that? The entire article basically talked about how you can never domesticate a wolf.

Do you believe that if you can't domesticate an animal, that it's inherently and randomly violent? Every single one, in all cases? People live with tigers. You'd never say that they were domesticated. The majority of the time, this works fine. you only hear about cases where they turn on their owner, which is rare. I've spent a long time thinking about this question, and it seems like the ultimate truth is that we hu…

> Do you believe that if you can't domesticate an animal, that it's inherently and randomly violent?

The wolf in the story wasn’t randomly violent. It was vying for a better spot in its pack’s hierarchy. It was exhibiting ambition. Unless you’re willing to be seen as an equal by an ambitious animal willing to rationally dispense violence to obtain its short-term goals, you don’t want a wolf. You want a nice, subservient dog whose competitive instincts vis-à-vis humans have been bred out.

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#116

Post by sillysaurus3 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #115
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe that if you can't domesticate an animal, that it's inherently and randomly violent? Every single one, in all cases? People live with tigers. You'd never say that they were domesticated. The majority of the time, this works fine. you only hear about cases where they turn on their owner, which is rare. I've spent a long time thinking about this question, and it seems like the ultimate truth is that we hu…

> Do you believe that if you can't domesticate an animal, that it's inherently and randomly violent? The wolf in the story wasn’t randomly violent. It was vying for a better spot in its pack’s hierarchy. It was exhibiting ambition. Unless you’re willing to be seen as an equal by an ambitious animal willing to rationally dispense violence to obtain its short-term goals, you don’t want a wolf. You want a nice, subservi…

The wolf biting the children may be related to being raised in an environment that included brutally murdering other animals at the owner's whim. We can't know whether that matters.

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#117

Post by thebulgar »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #114
thebulgar wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why you're getting downvoted. Pitbulls, golden retrievers, wolves--all technically the same species. The prejudice against certain breeds of "dog," or against "wolves," is no different from racism.

Pretty much. Imagine what it would be like to be born a wolf or a pitbull. If nature is stronger than nurture, what does that say about our own species? How likely is it that it's impossible to shape a wolf? Dogs came from them. It has to start somewhere; it's not a step function. It's difficult to explore the question, though.

Your name is fitting.

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#118

Post by [deleted] »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #116
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you believe that if you can't domesticate an animal, that it's inherently and randomly violent? The wolf in the story wasn’t randomly violent. It was vying for a better spot in its pack’s hierarchy. It was exhibiting ambition. Unless you’re willing to be seen as an equal by an ambitious animal willing to rationally dispense violence to obtain its short-term goals, you don’t want a wolf. You want a nice, subservi…

The wolf biting the children may be related to being raised in an environment that included brutally murdering other animals at the owner's whim. We can't know whether that matters.

[deleted]

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#119

Post by JumpCrisscross »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #116
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you believe that if you can't domesticate an animal, that it's inherently and randomly violent? The wolf in the story wasn’t randomly violent. It was vying for a better spot in its pack’s hierarchy. It was exhibiting ambition. Unless you’re willing to be seen as an equal by an ambitious animal willing to rationally dispense violence to obtain its short-term goals, you don’t want a wolf. You want a nice, subservi…

The wolf biting the children may be related to being raised in an environment that included brutally murdering other animals at the owner's whim. We can't know whether that matters.

> We can't know whether that matters

Not from this anecdote, but there is research on the topic.

Studying puppies at 3, 4 and 5 weeks of age: “compared to wolves, dogs tended to display more communicative signals that could potentially facilitate social interactions, such as distress vocalization, tail wagging, and gazing at the humans’ face. In contrast to dog puppies, wolf pups showed aggressive behavior toward a familiar experimenter and also seemed to be more prone to avoidance. [1]”

Approach avoidance through biting and other behaviours are discussed in the same paper’s “discussion” section.

Later, they find wolves are worse at yielding to humans, keeping eye contact, sensing changes in vocal intonation or context when multiple people enter the room, et cetera [2].

[1] http://real.mtak.hu/3680/1/1075597.pdf

[2] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159113...

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#120

Post by School-Cotton »

StavrosK wrote: post #85
barry-cotter wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs and wolves are fully interfertile. Their suites of behaviours and adaptations are very different but they can be and often are considered one species.

Huh, wow, I didn't know that. I knew they're very close, but I thought they wouldn't be able to interbreed, since they're different species. Interesting.

I think "same species is defined as inter-fertile", which is what I learned in school, might be a bit of an oversimplification. IIRC, even dogs and coyotes can breed together as well and their children (and great^n-grandchildren) are fertile, however dogs and coyotes are not considered the same species.
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