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Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

nature.com

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Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#111

Post by beagle3 »

filoeleven wrote: post #109
beagle3 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In almost all psilocybin studies, the effect is mediated by the degree to which the participant has a 'mystical-type experience.' > I don't imagine this could be experienced while unconscious, and so assuming that's correct, then it would be substantially less effective if someone was unconscious. It's correlation, but to determine causation one would have to undergo simultaneous mystical-inducing-quantity psilocyb…

Overnight hospital stay with an IV drip to administer the psilocybin after the patient falls asleep?

Sounds like a good idea, provided that the patient is a good sleeper and is not sleep deprived - there is research showing sleep deprivation provides some short term relief for depression ... everything is confounding, nothing is intuitive about these things.

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#112

Post by _jal »

meowface wrote: post #90
_jal wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider it a neurochemical hack that reliably induces certain perceptual shifts. Those shifts in turn can help stabilize various emotional disequilibria. Does that make it more palatable?

The parent post was answering a difficult question with nothing other than their personal feeling about it. They have absolutely no evidence that it wouldn't have the same anti-depressant effects if someone was unconscious during their trip.

I absolutely agree with everything you said. I still find it to be a valid accounting of their own internal observations; the fact that it is subjective and not subject to external validation doesn't mean it is useless, it just means you're not extracting particular results from it that you apparently desire.

There are ways of knowing things that cannot be externally validated. That doesn't mean you can't study them within the four corners of the scientific method; we study pain, depression and lots of other things that take place in the head, too, and a big part of the input is "feelings".

But even without scientific rigor, we can know things. I don't need a study to know when to eat, and I know I've undergone perceptual shifts for various reasons. Since I'm not leading a policy crusade for legalization, a PR campaign to change public perception of legalization or a company that just really wants to sell mushrooms, I don't need more certainty.

TL;DR: there are different ways of knowing things that are good for different purposes.

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#113

Post by DanBC »

jamiewilson wrote: post #105
DanBC wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of this is true. Anti-depressant meds are very cheap. This is one of the problems of meds, they're much cheaper than a course of talking therapy. They don't cause dependence. Most people don't have problems coming off SSRIs, SNRIs, NASAs etc. > And this industry has the resources to effectively influence public discussion forums such as HN, Reddit, Slashdot, etc. You might want to read any of the posts dang has…

> They don't cause dependence. You say that with such authority, but in my personal experience they can absolutely cause dependency. I've had long-lasting withdrawal effects from certain SSRIs that were both physically and mentally painful.

It's not just me saying it. It's anyone who works in dependency services.

Discontinuation effects exist, are unpleasant, require correct tapering, but are not dependency.

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#114

Post by jamiewilson »

DanBC wrote: post #113
jamiewilson wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don't cause dependence. You say that with such authority, but in my personal experience they can absolutely cause dependency. I've had long-lasting withdrawal effects from certain SSRIs that were both physically and mentally painful.

It's not just me saying it. It's anyone who works in dependency services. Discontinuation effects exist, are unpleasant, require correct tapering, but are not dependency.

I understand the word "dependency" to be synonymous with what you're calling discontinuation effects. So, I think I agree with you now. Thanks for the following up with your clarification.
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