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Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

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Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#111

Post by swfsql »

quuquuquu wrote: post #95
Animats wrote: post #63

Well, we're about to find out if the Bitcoin exchanges in China have all the assets they should. The PBOC told them to stop trading, turn over copies of their records to the PBOC, and refund the balances of their customers. We should know within days which exchanges were stealing customer assets. The exchange executives were told not to try to leave China. (Remember Big Vern? Paul Vernon, CEO of Cryptsy. Took the mon…

Bitcoin and all of the other alt-coins are numbers on a screen. Few people pay taxes on them, and few places treat them as a real asset or fungible currency. Why then, do the authorities in the US and China aggressively pursue those people who ("steal", "lose") the coins of their depositors? Big Vern, Karpeles, Pirate@40, just to name a few. Sure, these guys lost people's coins. But I was there back then. It was all…

It's correct it's just numbers in the screen. But this is not to say we can't abstract anything form it, or it's worthless. After all, the internet and yourself are "just stuff flying around".

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#112

Post by Nokinside »

swfsql wrote: post #110
Nokinside wrote: post #103

There are also some philosophical issues that add to the hype. - BTC or some other cryptocurrency as taking over local currencies in long term. There is such things as optimal currency region. Global single currency would not work well. - Money as good long term store of value. That's hoarders dream, but it would be harmful for economy as a whole. It's the idea that you work hour in 2017, store the value as a money a…

work in 2027 is more valuable? so instead of just buying a coffe, you should pay it NOW and tell the seller you will back in 2027 to get it. They will love it!

They would love it. Anyone would love it.

Especially if doing the work includes using technology. Buying your computer, phone or car now and getting it 10 years from now would be ideal for the seller.

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#113

Post by swfsql »

aryehof wrote: post #54

Sadly I believe the ideals of cryptocurrency/blockchain technologies have been currently hijacked by those solely driven by a profit motive and greed. Altruism in the pursuit of a better way is for dummies I guess. I think that Satoshi's main thoughts at the moment would be bemusement about how the cryptocurrency mania seen today so well illustrates human behavior.

I think he hopped this would happen, actually in a non-judging standpoint.

I won't judge, but just state it's different from yourself: who apparently thinks egoism or profit-seeking is bad or undesired.

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#114

Post by freeloop2 »

kwelstr wrote: post #106
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Few people pay taxes on [their Bitcoin holdings] This is tax fraud. > How can the government arrest someone for stealing an asset that doesn't really exist? “Buyer beware” doesn’t exempt someone from fraud statutes. Honest services fraud is broadly defined in most jurisdictions to include any economic activity. > Would they arrest someone who stole water from my pool? Yes. At the very least, the perpetrator would h…

> Few people pay taxes on [their Bitcoin holdings] >>This is tax fraud. It is not; you only have a tax liability when you cash out, not when you hold, you could cash out and have a gain or have a loss and you need to reflect that on your income tax for that year.

Anytime you trade one cryptocurrency for another, you also are taxed

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#115

Post by swfsql »

Nokinside wrote: post #112
swfsql wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

work in 2027 is more valuable? so instead of just buying a coffe, you should pay it NOW and tell the seller you will back in 2027 to get it. They will love it!

They would love it. Anyone would love it. Especially if doing the work includes using technology. Buying your computer, phone or car now and getting it 10 years from now would be ideal for the seller.

I got confused by your previous claim. This doesn't "hurt the economy". Yes, 2027 tends to be more productive than 2017, but this requires an increase of investment, that implies savings.

Holding money allows others to use their money to invest, so you actually facilitate productivity to increase.

This is "in general", since you allow more good and services to be available to be consumed by others.

edit: this animation explains this coordination between savers and investors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaxIPPMR3fI

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#116

Post by bjelkeman-again »

walterstucco wrote: post #84
xwvvvvwx wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very interested to see how far things can be decentralised. I have no real ideas what this would look like but I wonder if there are decentralised approaches to regulation that would work (community decides together who the bad actors are?)

> I'm very interested to see how far things can be decentralised. a lot in theory very little in practice

That isn't a a very popular opinion to hold on HN, as you may have noticed. I think that there is a strong faith in decentralisation and removing rules by many who frequent HN, that have yet to be proven to work well, if the goal is a higher living standard for as many people as possible as well as limiting damaging externalities.

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#117

Post by quuquuquu »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #105
quuquuquu wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have I committed fraud when I steal your World of Warcraft gold? Yes. Should I pay tax on that gold when I sell it for cash? Yes. Will the police help you when you call them to report it? I highly, HIGHLY doubt it. It's easy to put your head in the sand and just say "yeah that guy committed a crime", but in reality, enforcement is really a lot more nuanced than that. So like forgive me if I think it's a waste of tax…

> Will the police help you when you call them to report it? I highly, HIGHLY doubt it With honest-services and securities fraud, the police are generally there to document, not enforce. If someone stole your WoW gold and you sued, you'd almost certainly have a case. If I were your lawyer (I'm not a lawyer), I'd send a letter to the relevant tax authorities and attorneys general, as a point of leverage during settleme…

I did some Googling. WoW gold theft results in Blizzard suggesting you open a support ticket, despite the fact that WoW gold, like bitcoin, has unofficial street value.

I will do more digging but I don't know if anyone has gone to the police for WoW gold theft. I'm not sure why WoW gold is treated differently from Bitcoin, which is apparently an honest to god bonafide US security in the eyes of the law.

Re: your point about not always getting caught, then it sounds like we have an unequal application of the law/enforcement problem. Which I suppose is the crux of my entire argument.

Why are we going after Big Vern when there are more pressing crimes to deeply investigate? I even used his exchange and I literally don't care. The coins were numbers to me, not dollars.

Re: Equifax, plenty of suspected criminals are detained for years before any criminality is proven. Just look at all the pre-trial detentions on Rikers Island in NYC.

You have young kids being accused of marijuana possession or etc, suspected trespassing, and then they don't go before a judge for many many months.

Whereas with Equifax, you basically have smoking gun stock trade proof and admissions of guilt.

It can therefore only be true that the reason an interrogation of these Equifax officials has not occured, is because the law/enforcement is being applied unequally.

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#118

Post by aianus »

prostoalex wrote: post #68
aianus wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually there are quite a few legal applications that are well-served by irreversible internet cash. Things like porn, sex toys, gambling in many jurisdictions, selling expensive items like gold bars or cash online, selling cross-border to sketchy areas like Nigeria or Romania, etc. Traditional reversible payment methods are very expensive or unavailable for these applications because the chargeback rates are off th…

> selling expensive items like gold bars or cash online So as a consumer I finally have the opportunity to buy an expensive item over the Internet, get swindled by an unscrupulous seller sending me an empty box (if anything), and have absolutely no recourse? Is that the value proposition here?

Yes, you have an additional opportunity. You don't have to use it if you're not comfortable with the seller or the chance of being swindled.

However, reputation systems seem to work alright, as evidenced by silk road where you really had no recourse but orders did come through.

You could also use an escrow service.

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#119

Post by quuquuquu »

swfsql wrote: post #111
quuquuquu wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin and all of the other alt-coins are numbers on a screen. Few people pay taxes on them, and few places treat them as a real asset or fungible currency. Why then, do the authorities in the US and China aggressively pursue those people who ("steal", "lose") the coins of their depositors? Big Vern, Karpeles, Pirate@40, just to name a few. Sure, these guys lost people's coins. But I was there back then. It was all…

It's correct it's just numbers in the screen. But this is not to say we can't abstract anything form it, or it's worthless. After all, the internet and yourself are "just stuff flying around".

Child porn is a crime committed via Internet. It is vigorously prosecuted.

Identity theft is a crime committed via Internet. It is lazily prosecuted.

Stock fraud ("securities" fraud) is a crime that is also vigorously prosecuted.

Bitcoin and alt coins, just like WoW gold, are not stocks. Therefore how can the state say Big Vern is committing securities fraud, and that we should spend millions of dollars attempting to "bring him to justice"?

EDIT:

Correct, I agree, but this occured in 2014 and would therefore be retroactive application of the law.

From what I remember, we were operating in a complete and total vacuum.

Big Vern's only mistake was being born a US citizen. If he was Russian, he would be a free man.

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#120

Post by tbv »

earlz wrote: post #22

I think that the cryptocurrency/blockchain space is the next big thing in the world on-par with the internet. But it still has a long way to go. In the late 90s you could say "X on the internet" and get tons of investment. Now it's the same but with "X on the blockchain". We are going through growing pains now, and there definitely needs to be some regulation introduced to curb the many scams. My personal hope though…

I suspect that the regulatory counter to sleek “get in now” marketing pages has to look something like requiring accreditation for investors.

Do you think it’s possible to square the desires to make startup investing accessible to retail investors and to prevent fraud? If so, how?

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