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Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

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Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#111

Post by ThrustVectoring »

Splines wrote: post #99
rkowalick wrote: post #4

I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new, especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.

> I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. And yet, our work is completely the opposite. Your boss doesn't care how much effort it took you to do that thing, only that it got done. Parents inevitably take this approach at home as well. An A is an A is an A. Good marks are what we look for, and are a mental shortcut to know if your child is doing their work at school. But we…

>Your boss doesn't care how much effort it took you to do that thing, only that it got done.

Err, that's not quite true, since your boss is an agent of the company and not the company itself. Your boss has to look good to his boss and "manage up", and looking like you're putting in effort is important for that.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#112

Post by Splines »

CptJamesCook wrote: post #109
Splines wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. And yet, our work is completely the opposite. Your boss doesn't care how much effort it took you to do that thing, only that it got done. Parents inevitably take this approach at home as well. An A is an A is an A. Good marks are what we look for, and are a mental shortcut to know if your child is doing their work at school. But we…

Boss here. I care a lot about how hard an employee is working.

Perhaps I was too harsh with my words. You do care, but would you rewards hard work in and of itself? Results are important - and to be fair sometimes you can't get the results you want and failure is ok and should be expected. That's a result too.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#113

Post by [deleted] »

Splines wrote: post #99
rkowalick wrote: post #4

I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new, especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.

> I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. And yet, our work is completely the opposite. Your boss doesn't care how much effort it took you to do that thing, only that it got done. Parents inevitably take this approach at home as well. An A is an A is an A. Good marks are what we look for, and are a mental shortcut to know if your child is doing their work at school. But we…

[deleted]

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#114

Post by usrusr »

S_A_P wrote: post #78

May be an unpopular take on this, but maybe something to think about. There are many things in school that amount to being "busy work" or pointless excercises. Is it possible that intellegent kids see through the bs and want to short cut what they perceive to be a waste of their time? Now the article is light on details about the kinds of cheating that occurs, so I dont know that fully explains it. I could see receiv…

What is the difference between busywork and training exercise? Often there is some kind of strawman goal to make the training exercise more interesting, but those who see through the strawman might be better off with a honest "you need to go through these stupid repeats because more interesting challenges later will be overwhelming of you can't do these in your sleep".

Rocky Balboa prepares for the showdown at the end of the movie with a series of boring morning runs, not with a series of exciting bar fights. Similar patterns apply to writing, music and even maths.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#115

Post by clairity »

rkowalick wrote: post #4

I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new, especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.

i disagree with this dichotomy. you shouldn't overpraise or underpraise, and you shouldn't simply prefer effort or results.

when i coach kids in basketball, i like to praise "effectiveness", which is a combination of stamina (staying with a task, both physically and mentally) and decision-making (doing the best thing in the moment given your capabilities).

these notions go beyond simple effort and results by weaving in underlying positive behaviors and sets the child up to succeed at their level, while also stretching them so they're never too complacent about their current accomplishments.

it's a super-tricky balancing act, and i get it wrong all the time, but it's rewarding when you see a child grow without them even realizing what's going on.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#116

Post by charlesdm »

TremendousJudge wrote: post #87
lagadu wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you don't want to let the naturally gifted coast through. As someone who isn't in the arts field at all, so please bear with my probable ignorance: why do you not want to let them coast through? Each class has a set of requirements that need to be passed and the pupil's level of performance at it graded; if someone is gifted at it then they're already at a high performance level. To put it in a way that's more rela…

My guess is that kids are different than adults. You don't want kids sitting bored in class because it's easy for them. It's awful (speaking from experience here). They either turn inside and do nothing, or disturb the class. You don't want the smart kids to learn less, you want them to learn more

Making them work harder for the same grade doesn't mean they still won't be bored, though.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#117

Post by Balgair »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #111
Splines wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. And yet, our work is completely the opposite. Your boss doesn't care how much effort it took you to do that thing, only that it got done. Parents inevitably take this approach at home as well. An A is an A is an A. Good marks are what we look for, and are a mental shortcut to know if your child is doing their work at school. But we…

>Your boss doesn't care how much effort it took you to do that thing, only that it got done. Err, that's not quite true, since your boss is an agent of the company and not the company itself. Your boss has to look good to his boss and "manage up", and looking like you're putting in effort is important for that.

Yeah, many open-plan/cubicle filled places have moved past the product and towards visible effort. I can't count how many stories I've read on HN about how the quiet hard working coder was passed over for a raise in favor of the dumb but verbose coder. Heck, even the founders just need to look good, as is also a common complaint on HN about companies that are all jazz and no drums.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#118

Post by mmsimanga »

mattlondon wrote: post #53

Anecdote: I had always been told I was intelligent and clever. When it came to the exams everyone takes as a 15/16 year old in the UK I distinctly remember thinking to myself something like: "everyone has to be able to pass these exams, so I should be able to pass easily without much effort since I am one of the clever kids". I didn't cheat, but my line of thought led me to a fairly disappointing set of results (as y…

Another anecdote: I finished high school 26 years ago. I too wrote O'Levels and A'Levels. A few things I can share on the classmates I keep in touch with or am aware of what they are up to. The most successful were not the smartest, smart as in top marks in maths which was the gold standard back then. The sentiment you expressed sometimes works in the opposite direction. Because my classmates knew they weren't the smartest, the worked harder in university and in life in general. Hence their success. The smart kids all "made it" but the not so smart kids 26 years later are much better off.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#119

Post by SamReidHughes »

inZGBl wrote: post #48
rkowalick wrote: post #4

I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new, especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.

I think that's probably more personality than anything else. I was always told I was smart and was never motivated. Perfect example: I took the ACT only once because I scored a 30 and it wasn't worth it for me to try to improve that score. Meanwhile, all of my honors & AP class friends took it several times scoring 33s, 34s, & 35s. This was a direct result of my "intelligence complex" and yet I have no trouble learni…

My rule for cooking is now to never buy any cookware unless I'm going to use it that day.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#120

Post by hdctambien »

rkowalick wrote: post #4

I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new, especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.

The idea is that if you are told "you got the answer, you must be smart", then your success and failure is innate to who you are. You don't have agency over it.

If you are told "you got the answer, you must have worked hard", then you get to own your success and you learn that if you work hard, you can earn success.

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