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What, exactly, do philosophers do?

the-tls.co.uk

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Re: What, exactly, do philosophers do?

#111
One often overlooked aspect of philosophy which HNers would appreciate, I think, is: with varying degrees of upfrontness about it, the aims of philosophers are not solely to deliver truth in the sense which non-philosophers understand it. (This is not in reference to academic scandal, btw.)

When philosophers make this departure from pursuing the usual notion of truth, the motivation derives from an understanding that the adoption of one philosophical idea versus another can have profound impacts on people's lives (just consider how certain religious ideas can make people behave for instance)—so it's often partly about figuring out a set of ideas which would be most beneficial if adopted.

The Pragmatists for instance were quite explicit about this (see William James' redefinition of 'truth' in Pragmatism for example)—and maybe others have been too, but I think the more common thing is to not be up front about it at all (which makes a certain amount of sense since that could impact the effect of their project to begin with).

I haven't seen the details myself, but a philosophy professor friend pointed out to me that even Plato was pretty blatantly doing this.

Re: What, exactly, do philosophers do?

#112
Consider these numbers from the College Board (SAT/GRE folks) [1]:

Total of Reading, Math, Writing scores on SAT by college plans:

1488 -- Visual & Performing Arts

1476 -- Psychology

1587 -- Philosophy & Religious Studies

1606 -- Computer & Information Science and Support Services

1612 -- Engineering

1685 -- Physical Sciences

1714 -- Mathematical Sciences

As anyone that has been around a US university lately knows, non-native English speakers are overrepresented in CS departments and consequently, this bring down the verbal and hence overall SAT scores for CS a bit. Furthermore, that's a pretty big category for CS that includes some of the far less theoretical areas.

I've noticed, more than once, that Philosophy majors feel that they are somehow in a rarified domain where the things they do are far beyond the understanding of the rest of us. A bit like my father, a doctorate in Theology, that was worried that if I went to MIT I would end up being a super TV repairman.

Academic papers and books in Philosophy are at times obtuse, but really no more difficult than reading a paper on, say, orogeny, out of my field, so slow going, but not impossible (it's the study of how geologic processes form mountains). Can Philosophy majors say the same thing about my books on Ring theory, Measure theory, Category Theory, Stats, Machine learning, Computability, Compilers, or Operating Systems?

I've tried to understand general relativity (to no avail) and my struggles with quantum theory have given me a great respect for Physics majors--they deserve their place at the top of the academic IQ ladder, but Philosophy majors should perhaps take a peek at what some of the rest of us work on.

[1] https://reports.collegeboard.org/pdf/total-group-2016.pdf

Re: What, exactly, do philosophers do?

#114
People forget that Alan Turing's essay "Computing Machinery and Intelligence" was published in Mind, a major philosophy journal.

People forget that Boolean algebra comes from a work called "The Laws of Thought," where Boole tries to describe the algebraic operations underlying thought. If you think that isn't something "philosophers do," this is an ancient goal stretching back to Aristotle's logic, up through Descartes, and into figures such as Leibniz (who independently invented calculus and played an important role in giving us the binary number system), Chomsky, and Jerry Fodor. Philosophy is one of the disciplines in the interdisciplinary field of Cognitive Science.

Much of the most important work on the foundations of mathematics was done by philosophers with a mathematical bent (or mathematicians with a philosophical bent, depending on how you want to look at it). Set theory. Incompleteness. First-order logic was invented by Frege.

A lot of the technology we're using right now is traceable back to the work of philosophers.

I've always found that the best way to think of philosophy is simply as inquiry. As a line of inquiry progresses, it may bud off into a field in its own right. Physicists today would have been called Natural Philosophers in Newton's time. In fact, before Newton it was Descartes' physics that reigned supreme in the academy. Some lines of inquiry might not bud off despite significant advancements, such as logic.

Of course, I don't mean to say that philosophy and inquiry are purely synonymous. There's something vague about what the discipline of philosophy exactly is. But I don't think that's too terribly important. The question is what philosophers do. Some of the stuff philosophers "do" would probably strike some readers here as very "heads in the clouds" type stuff. But some of the other stuff, I think HN would find interesting. Check out work by Hillary Putnam. Or Jerry Fodor, if you're interested in "language of thought" type stuff that bears some similarity to Boole's project in The Laws of Thought. Chomsky recently published a newish collection of essays called What "Kind of Creatures Are We?", which is worth a look too.

Re: What, exactly, do philosophers do?

#115
post #26

Always warms my heart to see philosophy on top of HN. Philosophy is hard -- much harder than one would think. And people that contribute are incredibly smart -- far smarter than software engineers, by comparison. On the other hand, it's very political, and a lot of it is mental masturbation. Philosophy of Science, I think, is almost a completely bogus field. Philosophy of Mind, apart from a few great minds (Chalmers,…

>And people that contribute are incredibly smart -- far smarter than software engineers, by comparison.

How can you possibly think this subjective, anecdotal statement is going to land well?

Re: What, exactly, do philosophers do?

#116
post #40
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And people that contribute are incredibly smart -- far smarter than software engineers, by comparison Comparing a software engineer to someone contributing to the advancement of an entire field is not really a fair comparison. This is like comparing someone who has a job in "compliance and ethics" to someone making advancement in quantum computing.

I'm comparing people of equal experience in either field. A philosophy undergraduate is, in my experience, much more intelligent than their engineering counterpart. This probably has to do with the fact that in philosophy, writing clear arguments is of primary import. Whereas in engineering, most examinations are problem sets -- where the worst that can happen is a clever gotcha' (see whiteboard interviews).

>Whereas in engineering, most examinations are problem sets -- where the worst that can happen is a clever gotcha'

Methinks you don't know much about engineering if you think problem sets make up most of it.

Re: What, exactly, do philosophers do?

#117
post #108
post #26

Always warms my heart to see philosophy on top of HN. Philosophy is hard -- much harder than one would think. And people that contribute are incredibly smart -- far smarter than software engineers, by comparison. On the other hand, it's very political, and a lot of it is mental masturbation. Philosophy of Science, I think, is almost a completely bogus field. Philosophy of Mind, apart from a few great minds (Chalmers,…

> Philosophy of Science, I think, is almost a completely bogus field. Not sure what you are talking about. Godel and Turing demonstrating the limits of some systems are actually giving philosophy of science results. I don't see any bogus in their work.

Also consider Karl Popper's contributions towards the importance of falsifiability.

Re: What, exactly, do philosophers do?

#118
post #26

Always warms my heart to see philosophy on top of HN. Philosophy is hard -- much harder than one would think. And people that contribute are incredibly smart -- far smarter than software engineers, by comparison. On the other hand, it's very political, and a lot of it is mental masturbation. Philosophy of Science, I think, is almost a completely bogus field. Philosophy of Mind, apart from a few great minds (Chalmers,…

Disparaging (all!) Software Engineers on HN? I'm surprised this comment has not been downvoted into oblivion.

Re: What, exactly, do philosophers do?

#119
post #40
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And people that contribute are incredibly smart -- far smarter than software engineers, by comparison Comparing a software engineer to someone contributing to the advancement of an entire field is not really a fair comparison. This is like comparing someone who has a job in "compliance and ethics" to someone making advancement in quantum computing.

I'm comparing people of equal experience in either field. A philosophy undergraduate is, in my experience, much more intelligent than their engineering counterpart. This probably has to do with the fact that in philosophy, writing clear arguments is of primary import. Whereas in engineering, most examinations are problem sets -- where the worst that can happen is a clever gotcha' (see whiteboard interviews).

A few bits that may be of interest: there's intelligence (as measured by IQ, [pre-1996] SAT) and there's insight.

I doubt we have the data to compare philosophers as opposed to programmers in terms of intelligence (and this is an empirical question), but consider Alan Turing: a highly competent early programmer (he was known to be an expert debugger as well) and (almost incidentally) hugely impactful in philosophy of mind as well.

On the other hand, in terms of impact, insight can be just as valuable as intelligence. Bryan Magee once asked Bertrand Russell about who he considered to be most intelligent person he's met: Russell's answer wasn't Einstein, but rather Maynard Keynes; Einstein's contribution came from his insight (incidentally one inspired by his reading of Kant and Schopenhauer) rather than from intelligence alone. This point (on insight vs. intelligence or "percepts" vs. "concepts") is one that Schopenhauer also harps to a great deal (in between his vituperation of Hegel, of course.)

This implies that if it is indeed true that philosophy has much greater impact on the world than programming, it doesn't necessarily imply anything about intelligence of philosophers relative to that of programmers. Indeed, it's quite possibly that some of most influential programmers (in terms of influence on the wider world) aren't always the smartest (consider startup founders, especially for startups solving social/economic/business as opposed to purely technical problems -- not always great programmers -- and their subsequent software specialist hires.)

Orthogonally, sometimes the influence of a programmer can be behind the scenes. Take epistemology for example: if you asked someone how they know something, it's quite possible that their answer might mention Google in some way or another (possibly fallaciously, of course) -- yet few think of Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Craig Silverstein, Sanjay Ghemawat, and Jeff Dean in the same vein as Plato (with his Meno and Theaetetus) when discussing "why is that we say we know know X."

As for Carmack, consider how much virtual reality (and here I am not just thinking Oculus, but even more so the 3D labyrinths of the original ID Software Games) might end up influencing metaphysics in the long run.

Re: What, exactly, do philosophers do?

#120
Disgruntled philosophy grad: not very much, in my estimation. Most of the good ones born in the last five decades have been swallowed by CS, at least in the West.

There's lots I'd like to say on the topic, originating from 'psychoanalysing' the field with a little too much vigor, supporting it with social-structuralist bollocks, and throwing in criticisms of the academic publishing hamster-wheel. But a simple nod is better than a rant.

Besides this, I think the main thing a philosopher 'should do' is explicitly not just philosophy. Speaking at least two languages, being able to code, and actively participating in empirical work and creative endeavours should be seen as crucial to the education of a philosopher, for them to produce work of historical merit. The first two increase the likelihood of avoiding the Wittgensteinian errors of language and the latter two keep your brain moving and subsuming after parsing mountains of dense text.

Of course, if you want to be a philosophical historian, or an academic who academises in philosophy, take the well-trodden path. I think there are many philosophers who could write like wrought iron, but whose hearts just don't seem in it. Perhaps I'm just one of those guys who enjoyed Nietzsche a bit too much.

Edit: I feel compelled to mention that I trust my hard knowledge of the discipline about as far as I could throw it. It's well worth the CS-types around here taking the time to investigate the field - I recommend Kenny's 'A New History of Western Philosophy' if you've got time, or any old MOOC. After all, it's probably what you'd be up to if we didn't have computers.

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