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Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

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Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#111

Post by matt4077 »

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #90
matt4077 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany comes to mind as a counterexample: a homogenous nation until the late 1950s, with no colonies to speak of, and jus sanguinis. Yet it transition to a functioning, diverse society today. And Japan is arguably paying a steep price for keeping their blood oh-so-pure: it's a society frozen in tradition and fear, with an economy in what is essentially a 20-year recession. Making robots care for the elderly will jus…

(West) Germany's ascent to a multicultural nation began accidentally, as the post-WWII economic miracle and the closure of borders with the GDR led to a shortage of workers which was to be remedied with an import of guest-workers from the Republic of Turkey. German employers' lobbying and the worsening of global economic outlook in the 1970s led to these temporary measures being made increasingly permanent, with a pa…

Germany had, just 10 to 15 years prior, shown pretty thoroughly that they were competing with the best of them in terms of "self-determination of a single nation bound together largely, but not exclusively, by ethnicity, shared language, and implied lineage to predecessor states".

Japan today and Germany 196x share the labour shortage. But Japan's demographic problem adds a second incentive to encourage immigration, whereas Germany back then was experiencing the baby boom. So, if anything, Japan has an even better case for immigration today than Germany 60 years ago.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#112

Post by oculusthrift »

zanny wrote: post #48
oculusthrift wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a massive part of our population do no-brain jobs that could easily be automated. do you want 30 percent unemployment?

Yes? The fruitful gains of production don't go anywhere in that scenario. Fire the redundant, replace them with robots, give them a UBI, a library, and a public education that drives them towards passions rather than towards being a good factory drone.

if you really think that's going to happen in the same country where people violently oppose even providing health care to people... i got a new altcoin for you to buy

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#113

Post by matt4077 »

alphaalpha101 wrote: post #105
matt4077 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol yourself, and don't be so wrong. Here's per-capita GDP growth in New Zealand, showing that there is real growth after normalising for changes in population: https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&...

1% growth is completely irrelevant. That's what I said: effectively in recession. The difference between 1% growth and 1% shrink is nothing. There's no reason we shouldn't be growing much more quickly. But we're not going to do so in a neoliberal world. That's just not going to happen. Draining the wealth of society to a small group of people that spend little money just doesn't drive growth. People can't spend and d…

Growth in 2016 was 4%, not 1% and not -1%: https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&...

It seems like NZ is growing at a pace of around 3%p.a. You're free to argue that there's some fantastic economic system that only you know, but most people will rightfully be sceptical of such claims unless you have a few examples of countries at NZ's high level of development growing at a much higher pace.

Other than that I've lost track of what were arguing. It appears as if you just start making completely unrelated arguments when you're proven wrong.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#114

Post by nostromo123 »

StudyAnimal wrote: post #106
petre wrote: post #66

At least it's better than paying for immigrants that forced their way into your country as the Germans are doing now.

Go away racist. Refugees need a safe place and germany needs fresh foreign blood to keep its society running. It's a win win. German children are going to take a long time before they start contributing and even then they will end up on Hartz IV before they accept a normal job.

Please do not post emotional beliefs as facts!

Point 1: many migrants are not "refugees". Period.

Point 2: ok, so German children will take a long time before they start contributing -- agree. What about some untrained analphabet with a different culture, who also happens to reject working with women?

PS. Applying the label "racist" to anyone who disagrees with you has dulled its sting, I'm afraid :-)

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#115

Post by hkmurakami »

cattlefarmer wrote: post #109
hkmurakami wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember visiting my grandmother many years ago in an assisted care facility in Kyoto for people with dementia/Alzheimer's and was struck by how hard the nurses work was. I shudder and am in awe even recalling it today. I agree with everything you've said regarding cultural assimilation when you can't speak the language. If you're a knowledge worth in a major city, then you can get by since people respect you and y…

The other problem is that many folks working unskilled jobs typically don't care to improve their lot in lives. I've been working on software for managing cattle farms with customers all across from Kyushu to Hokkaido and our biggest hurdle is that the employees simply aren't interesting in learning or trying to improve their lives. This extends to some farm owners even. Talk to them and all they care about is pachin…

Well employees probably wouldn't make more even if the owner made 59% more.

Owners, I wonder if their lives are good Enough already that they really don't care.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#116

Post by flukus »

matt4077 wrote: post #95
flukus wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the GDP per capita growth: https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&... . When you shave ~1% off to account for immigration, then shave off another ~1% for inflation and you can see the hidden recessions. And then you get into where that economic growth is going, which isn't to the bottom 80% of society. The end result looks a lot like the US median household income: https://www.google.com/…

I'm sorry, but I don't think you're arguing in good faith here. "Per capita" means "per head", i. e. per person. That means that any population growth due to immigration is already factored in. If you click on the little question mark, you'll also learn that inflation is also factored in already: "Aggregates are based on constant 2010 U.S. dollars."

The real point is that last one. GDP growth, economic growth, etc are all meaningless because for most of the population it is not reality, they are getting poorer. That big house and two cars that my father could afford as a single income earner is now out of reach for most of the population.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#117

Post by jaredklewis »

darklajid wrote: post #92
mikekchar wrote: post #49

This is an opinion piece backed up with practically no information whatsoever. If you want to know about immigration policy in Japan, you need look no further Japan's ministry of foreign affairs website. For example, here are the categories where you can get a long term visa [0] You will notice there is a points system [1]. You need 70 points to get in. A degree gives you 10 points. A salary of ~$100K gives you 40 po…

I just got a (admittedly: limited to 2 years for now, bound to the corporate sponsor) working visa for Singapore. Looking at your description: - I don't have a recognized degree (I do, but .. it's complicated) - I never had, nor will for the foreseeable future, reach 100k USD (DE doesn't pay like that, neither will SG in the future based on sources like Glassdoor etc.) - I'm over 30 I guess what I'm trying to say is:…

Indeed, the kind of visa discussed is actually one of the more difficult ones to get. Most people come in on category based visas which have more restrictions, but more lax requirements. Usually a university degree (for young folks) or a bunch of industry experience (for folks like yourself) is enough. No big salary or young age required.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#118

Post by [deleted] »

ufjvuc wrote: post #46
hiram112 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more like two opposing narrators: 1. Employers: we need more immigration, not enough workers (willing to work for the shitty wages I want to pay). 2. Workers: automation is kill all the jobs (that pay well, but require few skills).

What if the workers just owned the means of production and there was an adequate safety net?

[deleted]

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#119

Post by tanilama »

mikekchar wrote: post #49

This is an opinion piece backed up with practically no information whatsoever. If you want to know about immigration policy in Japan, you need look no further Japan's ministry of foreign affairs website. For example, here are the categories where you can get a long term visa [0] You will notice there is a points system [1]. You need 70 points to get in. A degree gives you 10 points. A salary of ~$100K gives you 40 po…

> A salary of ~$100K gives you 40 points

That is incredibly high for Japanese standard... Even Google JP engineers might not be paid for that much, and they are the top of the food chain. Most engineers I know, their salary is around 40k-50k a year. Apparently, Japan doesn't want below exceptional engineers in their country, which is a fair requirement, but hardly a welcoming one.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#120

Post by jpatokal »

fzeroracer wrote: post #69
mikekchar wrote: post #49

This is an opinion piece backed up with practically no information whatsoever. If you want to know about immigration policy in Japan, you need look no further Japan's ministry of foreign affairs website. For example, here are the categories where you can get a long term visa [0] You will notice there is a points system [1]. You need 70 points to get in. A degree gives you 10 points. A salary of ~$100K gives you 40 po…

This ignores the issue that while Japan opens the red carpet for people to move and work in Japan, once you get past the welcoming mat you enter the vaunted Japanese Business Grind where you get to deal with incredibly long working hours, abuse and shitty pay. This is before you even start talking about black companies. The reason why foreigners have trouble accepting Japanese culture is because work culture in Japan…

Not sure what's up with the downvotes: that's a harsh but accurate assessment of what it's like to work at the average large Japanese company.
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