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Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

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Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#111

Post by naasking »

Boothroid wrote: post #100
naasking wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Really? Everything that happens to you? What if you were mugged? You take ownership of how you respond to every situation. Things happen to you beyond your control, but you can be in control of how you handle and internalize it if you practice. Not being able to control your feelings is false for the most part. Giving up the sense of control over self and one's circumstances is well known to have depressive and dem…

But your own mind is not completely within your own control, I would argue.

The more you think like that, the less control you have.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#112

Post by tome »

vldx wrote: post #110
teekert wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the work of the stoics make you laugh and speed your eyes over their witty pages and puns? I also liked "a guide to the good life" [0], but the Subtle art is a much easier and lighter read. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/1522...

Thanks for your downvote; it substantially aids your argument. As I've said, the book does re-package some millennia old ideas and adds couple of hundreds usages of the f*ck world -- because it's of highest priority to be witty for some, apparently. Hell, CBT essentially does the same -- but it doesn't feels witty as it should be, right? Witty is of utmost importance after all.

> Thanks for your downvote; it substantially aids your argument.

How do you know who downvoted you?

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#113

Post by dnh44 »

vanderreeah wrote: post #102
Banthum wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These two things are not the same. A) Noticing a woman's beauty when you first encounter her. B) Making a 'valuation' of a woman 'solely' based on her looks. What's really deeply disturbing about the above is the mind-control aspect, driven by shame. Not only must you censor your words, but you must also hate yourself for your involuntary thoughts. This is total ideological possession , as Peterson puts it. And it's…

Ok, let's set aside the object of this "mind-control", i.e. the whole theme around men's attitudes to women, because we're not going to agree on that I guess. This is to be expected. But what I don't understand is your unwillingness to accept that it's sometimes ok to feel shame or the need to self-censor when one has certain thoughts. Is "mind-control", as you put it, always bad? Is one not allowed sometimes (not al…

Of course everyone is allowed to feel shame or self-censor. I don't think the OP was suggesting it shouldn't be allowed.

Personally I don't think that is a particularly good way to live though. The mind is our only refuge from the rest of society, and to attempt to censor your mind so it's more acceptable to society seems like a really sick thing to me.

To me it doesn't seem that OP is arguing against self-regulation or self-improvement in general, just self-regulation against conforming to society at large. That isn't to say one's own personal values aren't influenced by the values of society.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#114

Post by vldx »

tome wrote: post #112
vldx wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your downvote; it substantially aids your argument. As I've said, the book does re-package some millennia old ideas and adds couple of hundreds usages of the f*ck world -- because it's of highest priority to be witty for some, apparently. Hell, CBT essentially does the same -- but it doesn't feels witty as it should be, right? Witty is of utmost importance after all.

> Thanks for your downvote; it substantially aids your argument. How do you know who downvoted you?

Occam's razor.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#115

Post by vanderreeah »

dnh44 wrote: post #113
vanderreeah wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, let's set aside the object of this "mind-control", i.e. the whole theme around men's attitudes to women, because we're not going to agree on that I guess. This is to be expected. But what I don't understand is your unwillingness to accept that it's sometimes ok to feel shame or the need to self-censor when one has certain thoughts. Is "mind-control", as you put it, always bad? Is one not allowed sometimes (not al…

Of course everyone is allowed to feel shame or self-censor. I don't think the OP was suggesting it shouldn't be allowed. Personally I don't think that is a particularly good way to live though. The mind is our only refuge from the rest of society, and to attempt to censor your mind so it's more acceptable to society seems like a really sick thing to me. To me it doesn't seem that OP is arguing against self-regulation…

Which is precisely why I added loads of caveats - "sometimes (not always)", "a sector of society one respects (whoever that may be)", "(depending on what they are)". I haven't seen anyone in this discussion suggest that one should conform to (in your words) "society at large". That's just a straw-man.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#116

Post by 1_player »

pdpi wrote: post #39
averagewall wrote: post #9

I wonder if causality is backwards. Perhaps if your negative emotions are really causing problems, you're more likely to actively to to stop them by telling yourself not to feel them.

It's both — it's a feedback loop. Here's a typical couple of days when you're dealing with uncontrolled anxiety: You feel like shit, that makes you unproductive and slow and dull. End of the day, you didn't get anything done because you stare at your text editor and your brain just refuses to engage in anything but panicking over... something. You get home, Now you still fill like shit the same as before, but also fe…

Thank you for this, you've described my dark days from another perspective.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#117

Post by amelius »

notgood wrote: post #50
aphextron wrote: post #16

I've come to accept this with regards to sexist/racist thoughts. Once you realize that it is a normal, ingrained biological urge to have these thoughts as a result of human evolution and cultural conditioning, it frees you to stop "feeling bad" about having those thoughts and trying to block them out, so that you can objectively assess the flawed assumptions behind them and reason yourself past them without the need…

Looking at a young woman and the first thing that clicks on my head its asking and answering "is she attractive?" in a matter of milliseconds; its annoying as hell... why can't my first through be something more interesting? or at least why can't it be nothing at all so it doesn't interrupt my thinking? but I have come to realize that this is a more of a hormonal reflex than what we usually consider "a thought"; an a…

Women can enter into a friendship with a man perfectly well, but to maintain it - a little physical antipathy is required.

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#118

Post by Boothroid »

naasking wrote: post #111
Boothroid wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But your own mind is not completely within your own control, I would argue.

The more you think like that, the less control you have.

Control might be an illusion - we are getting into the realms of philosophy here, but some argue there is no such thing as free will.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#119

Post by Boothroid »

vanderreeah wrote: post #104
Boothroid wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet when we select partners evidence shows that most people look for the conventional attributes i.e. fertility in women, and status in men. Arguing against what seems to be a critical part of what we are seems bonkers.

Not in my experience, but that is anecdotal. If you have evidence beyond the anecdotal I'd be interested to see it, though of course there's no obligation for you to do research work for me. EDIT: Just to add that your comment's two halves are not logically connected. Even if we do act in this way, it doesn't make it a "critical part of what we are", or if it does, there is no reason that "critical parts" cannot be a…

There are studies that show general agreement on estimations of physical attractiveness, regardless of race and culture. Needless to say these are disparaged by those whose beliefs are challenged by said research, but anyway. There are also studies that indicate that most people end up with partners of a similar level of physical attractiveness all else being equal, which would seem to indicate that a hierarchy does exist, and moreover that each of us has some notion of our personal position in the hierarchy.

Whether this all derives from biology is hard to say - however the alternative is to suggest that we are all somehow indoctrinated to value physical attractiveness and would otherwise be saintlike in ignoring things that suggest genetic unfitness, such as obesity, small stature, disfigurement etc. Look at the animal kingdom - I don't think animals are gauging partners on their ability to tell a funny joke, or having the correct politics. The sex drive is one of our most basic drives. To think it's not still driven by basic prerogatives does not seem reasonable to me.

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