Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#111

Post by sctb » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:56 AM UTC

thaoo wrote: post #73

zorpner wrote: post #25

Good. I get that HN is not into this, but this employee stated, bluntly, that they don't believe many of their colleagues should be there because of their sex. Every peer review, every no-hire, every interaction , is and should be suspect. Happy where I am now, but future interviews will include me asking what management would do about this, and termination is the only correct answer. This is textbook hostile environ…

he never said that. i've seen your take repeated by others. all he was saying is that maybe the 'natural' balance of women/men in tech isn't 50/50. he said nothing about those who made it into the company. people like you, who can't understand simple arguments, are what got him fired.

There's no room for personal attacks like this on Hacker News. If you're interested in having a thoughtful and more inclusive discussion on the topic, this isn't how you do it.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#112

Post by jorgemf » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:56 AM UTC

sethev wrote: post #88

wyclif wrote: post #31

Fun fact: the author of the memo earned a PhD in Biology from Harvard. Google can fire him and get away with it, but it's going to be tough, very tough, for him to be falsely characterized as someone who is misinformed or unscientific. And the court of public opinion may well be more important in this controversy than any court of law.

Having a phd in biology doesn't prevent someone from being wrong

Not having a PhD in biology will probably make you less right than him.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#113

Post by trcollinson » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:57 AM UTC

friedman23 wrote: post #15

I haven't read the memo but I have read some summaries of it. Even before the memo was released I had a negative opinion of it. Not because someone spoke out their mind but because someone decided to just go and shout out their obviously controversial beliefs to the world expecting for his ideas to be taken seriously and for there to be no negative consequences. If you want people to care about what you think and hav…

I think you are making a number of poor logical leaps. I have read the memo in its entirety. I have begun the process of reading the citations in their entirety. I am, so far, entirely unconvinced of that he has proven his point about gender bias. I am entirely convinced that he did prove his entire point about the political and moral echo chamber that is Googles Mountain View office. Though he did not do it within the letter. Google helped him by firing him.

Where you've made some poor logical leaps are: there is zero evidence that he shouted out his obviously controversial beliefs to the world. As far as I can tell this memo did not go to the whole world by his doing. It did not go to the entire Google staff by his doing. In fact, for all we know he was asked for his well thought out opinion on Googles diversity training and gave it to the appropriate people who did not respect the fact that he was giving his opinion to a small group and began forwarding it on. You might say I have no proof of this, and you'd be right. But you have no proof that he blasted this to the whole world.

Additionally, he was a number of things in the memo but he was not an unhinged idiot. It reads like someone who was asked for his opinion on the training that was going on and whether there was value in making it mandatory.

I have been asked in professional settings for my opinion on controversial matters. One time I was put into a very troubling position because of my opinion and many people were quite upset. It was uncomfortable for us all. I no longer give my opinion on controversial topics. I keep quiet and do my work and if I disagree with a policy or procedure I find new employment.

I am sure the author of this memo has learned his lesson now. He will shut up. I hope that the world is a better place without his opinion.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#114

Post by cthulha » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:57 AM UTC

throwgoog452 wrote: post #43

zorpner wrote: post #25

Good. I get that HN is not into this, but this employee stated, bluntly, that they don't believe many of their colleagues should be there because of their sex. Every peer review, every no-hire, every interaction , is and should be suspect. Happy where I am now, but future interviews will include me asking what management would do about this, and termination is the only correct answer. This is textbook hostile environ…

> this employee stated, bluntly, that they don't believe many of their colleagues should be there because of their sex Did you read the essay? He certainly did not make that claim. Population averages are not statements about individuals. This is pure censorship.

> This is pure censorship

No, it is not censorship. He can say those things. He just can't pretend to be an effective team member if this is what he believes about his coworkers and he is unwilling to learn from others.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#115

Post by curiousDog » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:57 AM UTC

zorpner wrote: post #25

Good. I get that HN is not into this, but this employee stated, bluntly, that they don't believe many of their colleagues should be there because of their sex. Every peer review, every no-hire, every interaction , is and should be suspect. Happy where I am now, but future interviews will include me asking what management would do about this, and termination is the only correct answer. This is textbook hostile environ…

He certainly did not say that in his essay. I agreed with a few points of his (ex: acknowledging that even men who choose to should be included in stress/anxiety management programs instead of having them be gender specific. Make things a two way street.). Although, he did go full /r/theRedPill in certain parts which he probably shouldn't have.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#116

Post by budde » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:58 AM UTC

0xBA5ED wrote: post #23

fired from a tech company for "perpetuating gender stereotypes"... What in the world is happening right now? This is absurd beyond reason.

> fired from a tech company for "perpetuating gender stereotypes"...

Fired from a tech company for publishing a company-wide memo insinuating that some of his coworkers are, on average, at a biological disadvantage for the type of work they do and suggesting that some subset of them haven't achieved their position based on merit.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#117

Post by ThrustVectoring » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:58 AM UTC

danso wrote: post #95

wildmusings wrote: post #35

The author's arguments have been completely misrepresented. He pointed out widely-believed and sometimes scientifically-established differences in the DISTRIBUTION OF traits in men and women. He said that those differences make attempts to achieve numerical parity misguided, discriminatory, and harmful. What is his conclusion about how we should behave? "Treat people as individuals, not as just another member of thei…

The author accused Google of discriminatory hiring practices and "hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for 'diversity' candidates" (under the subhead, "The harm of Google biases"). Just because he couched his claims in a boring, vague manifesto doesn't mean he didn't imply something that impugns the qualifications of his coworkers. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586-Googles-Ideo...

Does Google's hiring practices "effectively lower the bar for 'diversity' candidates"? That's a key issue. If so, the details of Google's hiring practices themselves impugn the qualifications of preferred candidate groups.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#118

Post by wyclif » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:58 AM UTC

friedman23 wrote: post #15

I haven't read the memo but I have read some summaries of it. Even before the memo was released I had a negative opinion of it. Not because someone spoke out their mind but because someone decided to just go and shout out their obviously controversial beliefs to the world expecting for his ideas to be taken seriously and for there to be no negative consequences. If you want people to care about what you think and hav…

1. He worked for Google. One could argue that he wouldn't have been hired in the first place without "cultivating a positive reputation."

2. He earned his PhD in Biology at Harvard University.

What, in your opinion, should James Damore have additionally done to ensure that his thesis would be taken seriously?

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#119

Post by bronz » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:58 AM UTC

the author of the memo is completely correct and, as others have said, his memo is drastically misrepresented in the coverage it has received. he simply points out that women could have less desire to go into fields such as cs because of their biological makeup. he never says that women should leave google -- he only says that trying to reach a perfectly equal distribution is misguided. perhaps those who are red in the face while reading the memo failed to read between the lines and realize that under this logic, the women who do find themselves wanting to go into cs for passion and not just money should be welcomed. he never once called for anything other than the policy of acceptance and wide open doors that is currently in place. he is merely suggesting that maybe a perfect 50/50 distribution is not needed and, more importantly, liberal people in general need to snap out of the double think where we believe men and women are the same. men and women are not the same.

as a liberal i find that it is important to not shy away from controversy: women and men are biologically different. i am sorry, but they are. you dont need to reject this fact in order to treat women with respect and equality.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#120

Post by ionforce » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 1:58 AM UTC

dontnotice wrote: post #76

I think managerially this is the right move; the guy created chaos and had to go. I'm not sure that's the right move in any other respect, it certainly doesn't advance the conversation.

Do you think his writings were advancing the conversation?