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We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

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Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#111

Post by WalterSear »

freehunter wrote: post #107
WalterSear wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, another thing: $20 water shoes last only slightly less long than $100+ speciality 'barefoot' running shoes. :) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002Z7EOK8/ref=oh_aui_deta...

They might last as long, but do they work the same? I have $5 socks that outlast my shoes, but socks aren't exactly a replacement for shoes, right? Water shoes and barefoot running shoes seem like two different types of foot covering.

They work the same. The entirely flexible sole is the key.

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#112

Post by zzalpha »

freehunter wrote: post #109
zzalpha wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's your evidence? I assume you have a multi-decade longitudinal study to back up your claim?

Everyone says "I'm paying for X behavior from my 20s" when they reach middle age. In reality, it's just that's when the body begins to wear down and people naturally want to blame it on something so we invented a euphemism for it. It's not science, there's no evidence. People in their 50s start to hurt more, and injuries that never healed right can be ignored when you're young, but start to hurt again later on. It's…

Is this meant to agree with my point or rebut it?

This all started when sndean wrote the following:

Eventually you stop listening to everyone, even your coach. Running (and most sports) would do well to follow science and have a cited source following every statement. It's a little absurd when someone tells me I'm going to get injured if I don't do more barefoot running. I've been wearing this same model of Brooks shoe since I was 15. If you can give me a link to an article on Pubmed, I might read it.

rb808 replied with:

Wait until you get into your 40's and 50's, that's often when lots of bad habits start to cause problems.

I noted (obliquely, a bit snarkily) that this type of claim is literally exactly what sndean was talking about: that people make all kinds of claims with no evidence to back them up. And then rb808 demonstrated exactly that: "Oh, there may not be evidence now, but trust me, you'll pay some day..."

Your comment... I'm not even sure where it fits in, exactly. Yes, obviously people's body's age and don't heal as fast. No one is disputing that (and as a person approaching 40, I'm living it).

But what does that have to do with this specific, unsupported claim: that barefoot running is healthier in the long run as measured over decades.

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#113

Post by dsacco »

sndean wrote: post #72

> he calls treadmills the "junk food of exercise. > he believes running barefoot is more natural—and less likely to result in injury. This has always bothered me, and, even on HN, it still bothers me. Too many experts. I ran track and XC (HS, DIII, then DI for a season), did 100+ miles/week, won a half marathon, etc. Reasonably successful without any injuries, over ~15 years. Even I would get constant advice from eve…

Yes, it's deeply frustrating. I can confirm what you're saying and I only run about 30 miles a week, but I can run a six minute mile and a sub-20 5k (none of which are humblebrags by the way, that's at most a year of consistent training if you're younger than 50 and starting with a healthy weight). I find the exact same sentiments from people all the time. It's maddening having people telling me what they believe is good for my body with no attempt at research.

I'll offer a few of my favorites:

"Wow, your maximum heart rate is way too high. You should slow down."

"Your resting heart rate seems pretty low, are you alright?"

"You're going to develop arthritis running that much."

"You shouldn't run outdoors on pavement that much, it's bad for your knees."

"You shouldn't run on a treadmill that much, it's bad for your knees."

"Your stride is too short."

The worst is when people take legitimate science, or attempts at legitimate science, and use vague pseudoscience that resembles it to prescribe something I don't need. No, my heart rate is not too high at 215, I assure you, despite what your catch all formula says. No, I don't need to go barefoot running. No, I don't need to run at exactly 140bpm to be at my personal "fat burning zone."

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#114

Post by sgk284 »

WalterSear wrote: post #87
eritain wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ball of the foot is doing the pushing at that point, and the ball of the foot finishes the liftoff. Try and take a few steps where the ball leaves the ground before the heel, you'll see.

The ball of my foot may be the last thing to leave the ground, but when I run barefoot style, I'm pushing off with my heel.

Your heel doesn't have leverage to lift your body off of the ground. If your heel is leaving the ground it's either your knee lifting it or your toes pushing it. In the gif you linked, and in proper running form, you push with the balls of your feet. Your ankle / heel system is solely a fulcrum that doubles as a dampening spring.

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#116

Post by simplyluke »

zzalpha wrote: post #64
rosser wrote: post #9

The Fine Article doesn't really go into how we're doing it wrong, beyond a passing mention of barefoot running, and some dissing of treadmills (which is hyperbolic and orthogonal to reality; you can run "correctly" or "badly" on a treadmill or on the street or trail). I used to run a bit. Did an informal "couch to 5k" over a couple of months, before I'd even discovered that was a thing. The single most effective thin…

TL;DR, the gist of the "wrong" is that we've been trained by "trainers" (over-padded athletic shoes) to run in a straight-legged, heel-lands-first manner. Any reputable running clinic will teach you to make contact with the ground at the middle of your foot with a slightly bent knee. That's just well understood, proper technique, regardless of footwear. The real problem is people hitting the pavement without learning…

Agreed. The notion (expressed in the article) that most people don't require training to run correctly is patently false.

Most people aren't even breathing correctly, the idea that you can pick up after decades in schools and sedentary jobs and start running miles with no input in a way that won't get you hurt is rather dangerous.

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#117

Post by increment_i »

zzalpha wrote: post #64
rosser wrote: post #9

The Fine Article doesn't really go into how we're doing it wrong, beyond a passing mention of barefoot running, and some dissing of treadmills (which is hyperbolic and orthogonal to reality; you can run "correctly" or "badly" on a treadmill or on the street or trail). I used to run a bit. Did an informal "couch to 5k" over a couple of months, before I'd even discovered that was a thing. The single most effective thin…

TL;DR, the gist of the "wrong" is that we've been trained by "trainers" (over-padded athletic shoes) to run in a straight-legged, heel-lands-first manner. Any reputable running clinic will teach you to make contact with the ground at the middle of your foot with a slightly bent knee. That's just well understood, proper technique, regardless of footwear. The real problem is people hitting the pavement without learning…

How is it even possible to not run in this fashion? I mean, the way you described it, is what running is right? I can't even picture someone running and landing on the heel or back of their foot. That would resemble some kind of bizarre speed-marching technique. I've never seen anyone in my life run like that.

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#118

Post by benesch »

zzalpha wrote: post #71
Fordrus wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been to a run clinic, I can absolutely call bull on the claim "Footwear is irrelevant, here.". At least the run clinic I went to assured me multiple times that my impression that wearing "trainers" specifically and greatly increases the difficulty of running "correctly" by striking with the middle of your foot with slightly bent knee. The large heel of virtually all training shoes makes landing in the middle o…

Was the clinic run by a store selling overpriced Vibrams by any chance? I've run on regular runners for years. Nothing about them makes good technique harder. There may be less feedback you're doing it wrong (in the form of less pain and discomfort), but the designs themselves don't stop you from running properly. That said, it's not easy . It requires real self-awareness and a willingness to fight the urge to overru…

Out of curiosity, have you ever tried running barefoot? I spent four years of cross country practice in high school desperately fighting my tendency to overstride. At the start, my stride rate tended towards the high 70s (a healthy stride rate is high 80s, low 90s), and I barely got to the low 80s by the time I graduated.

The first time I went running barefoot, my stride rate was over 90. Instantly. If someone had told me, I would have been spared four years of stride rate exercises.

You might be right to claim that someone who's run barefoot their whole life will have no trouble running properly in standard runners, but if you don't already have perfect form cushioned shoes are not doing you any favors.

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#119

Post by ngold »

rosser wrote: post #9

The Fine Article doesn't really go into how we're doing it wrong, beyond a passing mention of barefoot running, and some dissing of treadmills (which is hyperbolic and orthogonal to reality; you can run "correctly" or "badly" on a treadmill or on the street or trail). I used to run a bit. Did an informal "couch to 5k" over a couple of months, before I'd even discovered that was a thing. The single most effective thin…

Where does walking fit into this? As a person that does not run but walks i notice the wear on the outer back step to wear more than other parts of the heal. I walk in a straight stride with no duck walking. Always wondered with all the miles i put in and a generally fit body, if i am doing it wrong?

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#120

Post by ghthor »

ak217 wrote: post #45
WalterSear wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When you run barefoot, or in a pair of ultra-light "shoes" like Vibrams, you learn very quickly not to do that, or you stop running. The "right" way is to land on the ball of the foot, with the knee slightly bent. The knee bends further to dissipate the force of the landing. This is how evolution "meant" for us to do it. There's more to it than that. Please make sure that you are pushing off with your heel. Many peo…

I've been running recreationally since high school, I average about 20 miles/week, an even mix of road/trail. I'm also a bit heavier than a typical avid recreational runner, putting more stress on my legs and feet. Having gone through a variety of shoes, I'd like to caution people about the minimalistic shoe trend, especially if you run mostly on pavement. It's true that overly cushioned shoes can cause heel strike a…

It isn't impossible to push off from the heel. Imagine running in in sand and making an attempt to leave no mark. After you catch yourself gently and your heel touches the ground you let it all go, your whole weight, into the ground and then push off with the heel. The forefront and the toes leave the ground last, but they aren't pushing, they are being picked up.
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