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14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

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Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#111

Post by ino »

galfarragem wrote: post #81
petre wrote: post #67

Romania is on the last place according to the chart in the article and drug possesion is a criminal offense in this country. It's punishable by two to five years in jail. The rehab is inside the penitenciary, so you first go to jail, then to rehab. Also it's quite interesting how just about every country that's close to the Netherlands, save for France which criminalizes posession, is at the top of the chart. I've be…

> I've been to Lisbon and was approached countless times on the street by shady individuals trying to sell drugs, usually mj/hash but also coke They are mostly groups of gypsies selling fake drugs and sunglasses that will escalate to coercion if necessary/possible. Police is normally very permissive.

This is the truth. Those guys are there to scam tourists.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#112

Post by jdmoreira »

lm2s wrote: post #97
lmickh wrote: post #12

Find it misleading that almost all of the recent articles on this subject talk about decriminalization as the cause for the drop in drug related health issues. They shifted a significant chunk of money to health services. If it proves anything, it is only that health services can reduce drug related health issues. Without a control, there is nothing to point to regarding criminalization vs decriminalization. People a…

It's not really misleading if you know the how and why. For the addicts to accept health services help (like clean needles or getting off heroin) they could not be under threat of going to jail. So you decriminalise to allow addicts to come forth and accept clean needles and other help, while simultaneously investing more money to provide that help. It's a two prong "attack" and it's pretty simple actually.

Exactly. Also, decriminalizing sends a message to the population that addicts are not criminals but people that by a series of mistakes and bad decisions are currently in a bad situation and in need of help.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#113

Post by [deleted] »

lm2s wrote: post #97
lmickh wrote: post #12

Find it misleading that almost all of the recent articles on this subject talk about decriminalization as the cause for the drop in drug related health issues. They shifted a significant chunk of money to health services. If it proves anything, it is only that health services can reduce drug related health issues. Without a control, there is nothing to point to regarding criminalization vs decriminalization. People a…

It's not really misleading if you know the how and why. For the addicts to accept health services help (like clean needles or getting off heroin) they could not be under threat of going to jail. So you decriminalise to allow addicts to come forth and accept clean needles and other help, while simultaneously investing more money to provide that help. It's a two prong "attack" and it's pretty simple actually.

[deleted]

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#114

Post by Nursie »

ausvisaissues wrote: post #82
mythrwy wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I generally agree with most of what you state I'd like to offer the unpopular opinion that the personal decision to use hard or addicting drugs is something of a moral failing. Not that there aren't extenuating circumstances, not that it's a "terrible crime", but, it is a vice in which people for the most part, at least initially, have some choice. Again, I'm in favor of most everything you suggest, particularl…

You are wrong: it is a big moral failing. Why is it impossible for Westerners not to use drugs, while the Japanese manage not to use it fairly well? Should we set the bar for behaviour so low? Even if drugs were legalized, the cost for treatment would be high (and presumably be bourne by the tax payer).

>> Why is it impossible for Westerners not to use drugs, while the Japanese manage not to use it fairly well?

Japanese people drink. Japanese people also are major users of over the counter drugs which we in the west can't get hold of, notably benzodiazepines like flutazolam and flutoprazepam are available to buy there.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#115

Post by ausvisaissues »

Nursie wrote: post #114
ausvisaissues wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong: it is a big moral failing. Why is it impossible for Westerners not to use drugs, while the Japanese manage not to use it fairly well? Should we set the bar for behaviour so low? Even if drugs were legalized, the cost for treatment would be high (and presumably be bourne by the tax payer).

>> Why is it impossible for Westerners not to use drugs, while the Japanese manage not to use it fairly well? Japanese people drink. Japanese people also are major users of over the counter drugs which we in the west can't get hold of, notably benzodiazepines like flutazolam and flutoprazepam are available to buy there.

Yes, Japanese people drink a lot, and it is a social issue. But there are a lot of functional alcoholics in Japan.

> Japanese people also are major users of over the counter drugs

Japan is much stricter with medicine than US. Several medicibes that are OTC in US are illegal in Japan: https://jp.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/local-resource...

I am sure that there are abuse of prescription drugs. But I have not heard anything about a systematic, widespread problem (comparable to prescription drug abuse in US).

A cursory reading of the WP says that the legal status of the drugs you mentioned is more or less the same as the US:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#116

Post by usrusr »

toyg wrote: post #33
lmickh wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it appears to affirm that law enforcement is not the best bang for the buck. There has been plenty of work indicating that like you mentioned. That wasn't a "bold risk". That is separate from saying that changing the legality of it impacts the usage though. There is not reason to take the result beyond what it indicates.

You cannot realistically get one without the other. Treatment often cannot be cold turkey, which means the addict will have to keep consuming (and hence carrying and buying) for a period; if that's illegal, treatment is not going to work. And no, methadone is not the same. Taking Sweden as control, for example, they spend loads on health services and treatment; but without decriminalisation, their numbers are still t…

Sure you can. Restrict illegality to use/possession outside of a treatment program. There already are many things pharmacists are not allowed to sell without a doctor's prescription, including strong opoids.

You would probably not want this kind of prescription to be signable by just any MD though, but that's another story.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#117

Post by whiddershins »

cpncrunch wrote: post #34
drefgert wrote: post #7

The critical part missing from portugals policy is that drugs must be legal to buy and sell (via controlled channels). Decriminalizing use helps, but legalizing sales take out the crime and ensures the health of users through clean product.

Even with clean heroin, there is still a danger from overdose. https://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topics/trends-statistics/o... You could perhaps consider it as a Darwin award...sell heroin to anyone who wants it, and then if they become addicted and overdose, at least it clears the gene pool of people who are too dumb to use it responsibly. /s Note, that is not my viewpoint, but I wonder if that's what some of the pr…

The risk of overdose is very much increased by lack of quality control.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#119

Post by mattnewton »

tigershark wrote: post #73
mythrwy wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I generally agree with most of what you state I'd like to offer the unpopular opinion that the personal decision to use hard or addicting drugs is something of a moral failing. Not that there aren't extenuating circumstances, not that it's a "terrible crime", but, it is a vice in which people for the most part, at least initially, have some choice. Again, I'm in favor of most everything you suggest, particularl…

Most importantly following the same reasoning so popular here we could argue that no one is a criminal, if anyone commits some crimes it is because of the social environment in which he was raised, or because of some mental health issues, or whatever excuse you want to find. In these years we are assisting to a de-responsibilization in which every one is excused for any behaviour. Pointing out like you that a lot of…

The problem with this is it doesn't match reality in many cases; people prescribed large doses of painkillers or drinking a bit more during a stressful life event are triggers for addiction. Those changes in behavior cause long term biological changes that can make people sick, and then their behavior changes. There is often no clear turning point like a decision to rob a bank. It really is a different kind of "crime" and I don't buy the slippery slope argument here.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#120

Post by e40 »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #100
chrisbennet wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The true reason for the war on drugs was to be able to attack blacks and anti-war demonstrators, according to Nixon' domestic policy advisor: At the time, I was writing a book about the politics of drug prohibition. I started to ask Ehrlichman a series of earnest, wonky questions that he impatiently waved away. “You want to know what this was really all about?” he asked with the bluntness of a man who, after public d…

Thanks for posting this. It explains a lot, including Jeff Sessions’s desire to restart the War on Drugs.

Yes, it does, and I wish more people saw this. Of course, many of the people in the President's base are completely on board with this, but the rest of us really need to resist setting the clock back (in terms of attitudes) 40 years.
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