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Wikileaks Documentary Makers Accuse Assange of Censorship

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Re: Wikileaks Documentary Makers Accuse Assange of Censorship

#111
I've always had mixed feelings about Assange going back to the beginning of WL. While I take my hat off to what he has claimed is the purpose of WL, I never quite trusted Assange the man. It always felt to me like the kind of power that WL has needs to be wielded by a person of great moral integrity and Assange never struck me as that kind of person.

Information is powerful and it can be used both to force transparency and it can be used as a weapon. My impression is that Assange views it more as a weapon that he can use against others.

Nobody can operate effectively in a 100% transparent environment. I was living overseas when WL released the State Department communications and most of the information released pertaining to the country I was living in revealed little of noteworthiness. It was all tabloid level stuff where some ambassador made a dismissive or insulting comment about some government official in a report back to Washington.

How would any of us like every email we've ever written to be put into the public domain? If we were doing nothing illegal what purpose would it serve to let everyone know that I hate my aunt's cooking and tried to get out of a family dinner in June of 2013? The only thing that information would do is embarrass me and strain my relationship with my aunt. No public good comes from it.

And that's where I see many of the WL releases being. Many leaks seem to stir up trouble where nothing illegal or malicious is actually occurring.

So, an organization like WL has a great responsibility. I applaud them for uncovering deceit and illegal activities, and I think we need some outside force doing it, but they also need to use that power in a way such that they don't try to prove their own importance by releasing information that is merely sensationalistic in order to heighten their brand.

I've never trusted Assange to be the kind of person who can make that distinction. WL would be much better off in the hands of someone/people who were far less concerned about elevating their own notoriety and were able to better able to separate the mission of WL from the politics.

Re: Wikileaks Documentary Makers Accuse Assange of Censorship

#112
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this case has no chance of going anywhere, then why run? A prosecutor acting based on political motives isn't uncommon, though unfortunate. But to actually convict Assange with so little evidence would require subverting the criminal justice system, tampering with witnesses, judges and the jury, which is far more egregious and unlikely. I don't have much faith in the ethics of prosecutors, but the judicial system…

> If this case has no chance of going anywhere, then why run? I think it's common knowledge that he cited concerns about extradition to the US as the reason for leaving Sweden. For context, this was just a few years after The Pirate Bay bust. TPB operated for a while claiming that they are breaking no Swedish law and seemed resistant to takedown attempts until suddenly the police raided them and they were arrested an…

Except he was in the UK for almost 2 years fighting the extradition to Sweden. The whole time he was saying the Swedish extradition was "actually an attempt to get me into a jurisdiction which will then make it easier to extradite me to the US" as if the UK is any less likely to cooperate with the US. If the US wanted him they could have asked for extradition from the UK during those 2 years.

Re: Wikileaks Documentary Makers Accuse Assange of Censorship

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

he repeatedly refused to meet Swedish investigators at the embassy, where there was no chance of rendition whatsoever. Sources? Because this is the exact opposite of what I read: that Swedish investigators had repeatedly refused to interview him there. Edit: I googled and I'm still convinced I'm right: https://www.google.com/search?q=why+dont+swedish+police+inte... Edit2: unless someone can show sources moomins answe…

He was interviewed in the embassy by Swedish prosecutors[1][2][3][4]. 1 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/julian-assange-poli... 2 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ecuador-sweden-assange-idU... 3 http://www.smh.com.au/world/swedish-prosecutor-ingrid-isgren... 4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assange_v_Swedish_Prosecution_...

So - unless anyone has more trustworthy sources - Assange has offered his testimony for years as long as they would meet him in the embassy and Sweden has refused.

Re: Wikileaks Documentary Makers Accuse Assange of Censorship

#114

I've always had mixed feelings about Assange going back to the beginning of WL. While I take my hat off to what he has claimed is the purpose of WL, I never quite trusted Assange the man. It always felt to me like the kind of power that WL has needs to be wielded by a person of great moral integrity and Assange never struck me as that kind of person. Information is powerful and it can be used both to force transparen…

I feel the opposite way. WL seems fairly harmful, but Assange is a hacker, he's one of us, taking on state-level actors. I kinda have to root for him a bit...

Re: Wikileaks Documentary Makers Accuse Assange of Censorship

#115
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this case has no chance of going anywhere, then why run? I think it's common knowledge that he cited concerns about extradition to the US as the reason for leaving Sweden. For context, this was just a few years after The Pirate Bay bust. TPB operated for a while claiming that they are breaking no Swedish law and seemed resistant to takedown attempts until suddenly the police raided them and they were arrested an…

Except he was in the UK for almost 2 years fighting the extradition to Sweden. The whole time he was saying the Swedish extradition was "actually an attempt to get me into a jurisdiction which will then make it easier to extradite me to the US" as if the UK is any less likely to cooperate with the US. If the US wanted him they could have asked for extradition from the UK during those 2 years.

IIRC: as a citizen it was somehow harder to extradite him from UK than from Sweden.

Re: Wikileaks Documentary Makers Accuse Assange of Censorship

#116
post #105
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the release of the Macron "documents" - complete w/ all the evidence of Russian manipulation and fakery, hanging MS Word edit tags in cyrillic, etc, in the official dump, says volumes. They didn't bother to even read through the stuff before dumping it on the public.

Macron documents weren't released by WikiLeaks, or are we talking some other leak from him? https://www.wired.com/2017/05/macron-email-hack-french-elect...

You're right, I think what I recall was WikiLeaks promoting the pastebin dump, then there was some quote that was circulated by one of their PR people say they had no reason to believe the documents were falsified, when other people were pointing out the cyrillic edit tags prevalent throughout the dump

Re: Wikileaks Documentary Makers Accuse Assange of Censorship

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when is spending trillions to attack a nation justified by its leader being an asshole? Saddam was mild compared to many other regimes at the time and was a US ally for years prior. We basically annexed Iraq to support US regional interests and the idea that Saddam's personality had anything to do with it is absurd. The ugly sectarian conflict we supported was effectively a cleansing of many of the nation's fig…

Saddam was mild? He threw people off roofs. I saw the videos. The roofs weren't even high enough to kill them outright. I don't think it was a good idea to go launch a war at him, but it's good he's dead. That was one of the few silver linings in the Iraq debacle. Unfortunately, the suffering greatly increased after Saddam's death, mostly because we tried to occupy the country. If we hadn't done that, things might've…

Your parent only claimed that Hussein was mild compared to other regimes. I tried to find the video you mentioned and immediately found articles about Syrian rebels throwing people off roofs and ISIS doing it to gays, so maybe this claim wasn't too far-fetched.

Re: Wikileaks Documentary Makers Accuse Assange of Censorship

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually no - politics in democratic systems should transcend this immature behaviour. Meaning, at some point of heated debate, those with no feelings involved take a step back, and find a middleground solution, a compromise with which both sides can live. And usually that boring compromise is accepted by the majority of the people. The problem starts when the majority of the people are cut off from economic growth a…

>Actually no - politics in democratic systems should transcend this immature behaviour. This isn't a democracy, it's a republic. Any compromise needs a supermajority of citizens in support of a majority of elected officials. With the two party system, often compromising can lead to an election loss even if the majority of voters were in favor of the end bill.

> This isn't a democracy, it's a republic

Please stop spreading this false dichotomy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic

"""In American English, the definition of a republic can also refer specifically to a government in which elected individuals represent the citizen body, known elsewhere as a representative democracy (a democratic republic),[4] and exercise power according to the rule of law (a constitutional republic)."""

Re: Wikileaks Documentary Makers Accuse Assange of Censorship

#119

I've always had mixed feelings about Assange going back to the beginning of WL. While I take my hat off to what he has claimed is the purpose of WL, I never quite trusted Assange the man. It always felt to me like the kind of power that WL has needs to be wielded by a person of great moral integrity and Assange never struck me as that kind of person. Information is powerful and it can be used both to force transparen…

> Nobody can operate effectively in a 100% transparent environment. > Many leaks seem to stir up trouble where nothing illegal or malicious is actually occurring.

A distinction has to be made between secrecy and privacy. While Assange built a great tool against secrecy (and that's what scares Washington and alikes), it may be something good for privacy (hypothetically, the relationship with your aunt is safe, and maybe safer than before Wikileaks).

Things work when the penalty is commensurate with the bad behaviour, if there's no penalty than you're inciting "the bad things"...

If your definition of "bad things" is "everything that's illegal", you're making a reference to the law, but what we should consider is that the law is made by humans. Wikileaks targets those who think they are exempted not only by law, but also by morality, and do this using the threat of completely exposing them ...

If you partially expose things, choosing what to publish and what's private; than not only you are implicitly expressing a priori judgment without clearly exposing it, but you’re manipulating the data and decreasing the punishment too (effectively incentivising the wrong behaviour).

I think that exposing some of the dirty little secrets of these big players is not something that the average Jane/Joe can do, and is definitely not something that you should expect from someone with a strong moral integrity, or excessive scruples of conscience.

Trust is something tricky in intelligence chess games.

Penalty is what is needed here, things won’t change until we require the governments to put the people responsible of killings, dragnets, … in jail. But Hacking Team is still happily up and running despite their actions and the same goes for the attitude of the American intelligence community.

I might also agree, but I’m sorry to say that we still need Wikileaks.

Re: Wikileaks Documentary Makers Accuse Assange of Censorship

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Actually no - politics in democratic systems should transcend this immature behaviour. This isn't a democracy, it's a republic. Any compromise needs a supermajority of citizens in support of a majority of elected officials. With the two party system, often compromising can lead to an election loss even if the majority of voters were in favor of the end bill.

> This isn't a democracy, it's a republic Please stop spreading this false dichotomy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic """In American English, the definition of a republic can also refer specifically to a government in which elected individuals represent the citizen body, known elsewhere as a representative democracy (a democratic republic),[4] and exercise power according to the rule of law (a constitutional r…

It is not a democracy in the form their example illustrated, it is a democratic republic. I didn't think that statement would be controversial as it is true for what I assumed was the definition of democracy used.
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