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Why do so few people major in computer science?

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Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#111

Post by jsolson »

kutkloon7 wrote: post #79

I majored in computer science, and I don't feel like I've learned anything. Every time there was an opportunity to learn something cool (mathematical theory behind cryptography, assembly language, details of a processor, the cache, or a communication protocol) or useful, it was glanced over as 'technical details'. Instead, I was introduced to many, many small topics (programming, graphics, databases, algorithms, user…

My observation is that the problems in software engineering tend to look simple until you actually try to build something larger than a toy. I gather that, if you have the relevant background in other engineering disciplines, the same deceptive simplicity applies.

It's easy to dismiss the difficulties that arise in software as properties of the language, platform, framework, etc. that you're working with, except that we're a few decades into this whole software engineering thing and we're still inventing (and re-investing) tools to solve "simple" problems. Which, of course, is also true in many other engineering disciplines. Sure, the scale may get smaller or larger, but base issues like "this problem would be easy if I could just temporarily disable gravity" or "I've got the perfect mechanism for this if we can allow one solid to pass through another when we assemble it" still crop up with remarkable frequency.

One might reasonably start to think that estimating the difficulty of problems is, in and of itself, harder than it looks.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#112

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

twblalock wrote: post #78
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no STEM shortage because salaries haven't risen for those already working in the field.

They certainly have risen in tech, the T part of STEM.

NYC and SF are small islands compared to the rest of the country. Salaries are flat for everyone else.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#113

Post by kutkloon7 »

matwood wrote: post #100
kutkloon7 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a vanilla computer science program. I combined it with a math major. I think the program at my uni was especially soft; there were no math courses at all. I suspect it's a bit better at a 'technical university' (I do my masters at one). I think the electrical engineers at my new uni are on par with the computer scientists at programming (which is basically the one and only skill you learn in my CS program), or e…

No math is crazy. Mine required multiple semesters of discret, probability/stats, and up to calculus. My school was a liberal arts college, and still required a decent amount of math for the undergrad CS degree.

It is crazy. To be fair, there was some math buried in the courses (like modular arithmetic in the cryptography class, and some discrete math in the concurrency class), but it felt rather awkward and not relevant to the classes.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#114

Post by Raphmedia »

Two path were in front of me:

A) Enter the market without a major. Work for a low but decent pay for 4 years (with yearly pay raises) and then use the experience to move elsewhere and jump up in salary.

B) Spend 4 years without any pay, get out of school and end up with an entry position, work 4 more years and then move to a position that offers a good salary.

Needless to say that I went with A) and am not regretting it at all.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#115

Post by twblalock »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #112
twblalock wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They certainly have risen in tech, the T part of STEM.

NYC and SF are small islands compared to the rest of the country. Salaries are flat for everyone else.

> NYC and SF are small islands compared to the rest of the country.

Not in terms of tech jobs.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#116

Post by dahart »

kutkloon7 wrote: post #79

I majored in computer science, and I don't feel like I've learned anything. Every time there was an opportunity to learn something cool (mathematical theory behind cryptography, assembly language, details of a processor, the cache, or a communication protocol) or useful, it was glanced over as 'technical details'. Instead, I was introduced to many, many small topics (programming, graphics, databases, algorithms, user…

I learned a lot in my CS degree, but I have wished I did a lot more physics and math. I specialized in graphics and I've noticed that a lot of the foundational advancements in graphics are more physics than computer science. Many of the most well known graphics people started in physics or math and switched to computer graphics, and some of them admit that it's because graphics was easier with more low-hanging publication fruit.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#117

Post by wolco »

kutkloon7 wrote: post #93
nxc18 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was your program? I suspect there is considerable variation. My program only required students to take the intro courses for all those topics, but students were expected to pick one or more areas of concentration. I wrote an operating system and a simulated CPU implementing (a subset of) a real-world ISA in my last semester - both comparatively in-depth things. Of course I did have to choose that, and in so doin…

Just a vanilla computer science program. I combined it with a math major. I think the program at my uni was especially soft; there were no math courses at all. I suspect it's a bit better at a 'technical university' (I do my masters at one). I think the electrical engineers at my new uni are on par with the computer scientists at programming (which is basically the one and only skill you learn in my CS program), or e…

That is the difference between a bs vs ba. Different schools offer the computer science programs as either one or the other in my country and the courses in both programs can be very different.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#118

Post by cheez »

kutkloon7 wrote: post #105
kevan wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's fair to say that computer science isn't hard when you openly admit that you didn't go into any depth in the topics. That's like me claiming the field of Mathematics isn't very hard because the bog- standard calculus courses I took weren't very difficult. Maybe we should be asking whether computer science as we know it is too broad of a field to meaningfully explore in a Bachelor's degree.

True, you can make it as difficult as you want. But generally, math, physics, and engineering programs are much harder.

Depends what you mean by hard. I went into computer science and I got the highest grades in statistics at a university which is in the top 10 worldwide for statistics. In fact, I got perfect on the final where the average was a fail. I did "OK" in comp sci (deans list, but no special placement other than that.)

Stats/calc/algorithms weren't hard, I needed practice. I did every question in every textbook and followed up with the prof when I didn't understand how something worked.

Computer science actually pulls together all these different disciplines into one. By that metric, it might be the hardest. But really, nothing is easy or hard, it just takes practice.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#119

Post by orthoganol »

closeparen wrote: post #91
orthoganol wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those practices also speak to the general openness of opportunity of being a developer - your actual skills matter most, so they screen to assess your skills. Other industries focus more on degrees or names of past employers, etc., and I prefer it this way in software. But yes, due to its openness, that you don't need the relevant degree to find employment as a SWE or ML engineer or data scientist (lol - data scienti…

If interviews measure your actual skills, why do working practitioners study for them? Interviews measure a shibboleth with a glancing relationship to relevant skills, which is more based on expedient and clever solving of the toy algorithms problems you'll find in college than the actual quality of a developer's output. Different companies' interviews attempt to measure the same skills in different and subjective wa…

People always claim this but it's not true for the majority of companies. Yes some, including a small number of big brands, ask leetcode algorithm whiteboard questions, but most interviews I've ever had are more practical, prove you can build things.

That said, I have no problem with leetcode algo questions, as long as the interviewer is only checking for your ability to think, communicate, and hands on experience with a few basic programming approaches (using hashes, recursion, structuring code etc.), which they are in fact excellent gauges for. If balanced with other types of interview challenges, it's not a bad way to assess. (but yes, it crosses the line if they care about the perfection of your leetcode algo; again, most do not)

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#120

Post by nickthemagicman »

djsumdog wrote: post #30

I'm glad I got a full CS degree, but I knew several people who dropped to the business versions (often called MIS or CIS depending on your school) and learned a lot of the basics of programming and web front ends without more the hard core algorithms and foundation work. As I read the into, I think the author touched on a lot of the reasons I was starting to think of. A lot of people do boot camps (which are overpric…

I just wanted to say I agree with the field being "pretty horrible", for all the exact same reason you posted.

Civil/Mechanical engs, Doctors, Lawyers, Nurses, Biologists etc, all get out in the field and/or get to work with people all the time...

In tech it's the same flourescent lights, same keyboard, same office, same people...every day for 40 years? What kind of quality of life is that? It's literally the definition of the Rat Race, tech people are just paid better.

This is a very legit reason for not entering the industry, and I think and is probably the biggest reason for the lack of csci majors.

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