Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job • Hacker News Board

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#111

Post by brightball » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:20 PM UTC

howard941 wrote: post #52

brightball wrote: post #42

Fwiw, my understanding is that in right to work states a noncompete CANNOT prevent you from earning a living in your field. The clauses have to be defined as very specific, time limited and reasonable otherwise they don't hold up under legal scrutiny. Stuff like, not being able to take current customers to a competing business within a mile for a period of 1 year is considered reasonable.

Insofar as Florida (Floriduh), a "right to work" state is concerned, this is sadly not correct. Most non-competes are enforceable here :( IAAL but IANYL.

Not a lawyer, but the ones I have spoken to here in SC have told me that's how it worked.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#112

Post by AnkhMorporkian » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:24 PM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #96

linkregister wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this advice about contracts of adhesion all the time, "just red line out the parts you don't like, just like in that scene in 50 Shades of Gray." Who in the software industry still gets offers like that? Everyone I know gets a DocuSign PDF they sign digitally. There's no opportunity to alter the document. There is basically no non-confrontational way to do this. If a software developer has a competing offer, s…

What? Only if you're very inexperienced will this be tricky, once you're senior nobody bats an eye when I ask for things to be changed in the contract. A contract is part of communicating how we will work together. Demonstrate that you're competent by clearly communicating the changes you want and why you want them and if they react back poorly then you dodged a major bullet, since they'll also communicate poorly in…

I've been working in software for a long time, and have been asked to sign non-competes over a dozen times by now.

I'm a contractor, which makes it much easier to turn down (how the hell could I possibly keep working with a non-compete?), but the OP is correct in that almost everything is a PDF nowadays. You have to bitch and scream to get a contract changed. Most naive workers won't understand that there's a negotiation process; they simply think that the contract represents the job.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#113

Post by yitchelle » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:31 PM UTC

quizotic wrote: post #68

In the early 1990s, I'd co-founded an object database company, with a standard "east-coast-style" non-compete, which among other things, granted us injunctive releif. Our top developer left to work for our main competitor. We sued, and the courts ruled basically that there is no slavery in the US and our developer had every right to earn a living doing what he knew how to do. Maybe laws have changed, and maybe it var…

If you are saying that a noncompete is meaningless, why did you put it into your contract in the first place? I am just curious.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#114

Post by esoterica » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:31 PM UTC

ScottBurson wrote: post #105

esoterica wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Redlining the non-compete section is not a minor modification. Some companies are very serious about their non-competes. They will pay you millions of dollars to respect them (and sue you for millions of dollars if you don't). If you try and cross out your non compete agreement they will just withdraw your job offer. Non competes aren't intrinsically shady or evil. Some companies have business models that depend very…

First off, noncompete agreements and nondisclosure agreements are separate things. I don't see anyone here arguing that an employer's proprietary IP does not deserve protection. Secondly, while there do exist well-compensated noncompetes for executives and other high-value employees -- and I don't think anyone here is arguing against those either -- the vast majority are not compensated at all, except that the employ…

Since you can't lobotomize someone when they quit, it's impossible to prevent someone from using proprietary knowledge and insights at their new job, even with a nondisclosure agreement in place. IP transfer doesn't always happen in a way that's overt and easily prosecutable, like stealing confidential blueprints or explicitly telling your new employer trade secrets.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#115

Post by fnj » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:32 PM UTC

stupidhn wrote: post #25

vostok wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not excellent because they stop paying you if they terminate the noncompete, but you also can't look for a new job until the very end of your noncompete period.

I'd love to know where you live that an employer can fire you and expect you to honor a non compete. The second they stop paying you your obligations end. No judge in the land will prevent you from being unable to earn a living.

I have been given "agreements" to sign in which the non-compete clause is plainly unconditionally worded: no matter what the cause of termination. I don't know whether they expected to enforce it or not. I redlined the part covering "dismissal", and my annotated agreement was not rejected.

This was in Massachusetts.

In the end I did get RIFed. They nailed me by conditioning the severance package on accepting a freshly drafted non-compete. I went along with it because I considered my likelihood of continuing in that line of work to be negligible anyway.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#116

Post by 3pt14159 » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:35 PM UTC

AnkhMorporkian wrote: post #112

3pt14159 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Only if you're very inexperienced will this be tricky, once you're senior nobody bats an eye when I ask for things to be changed in the contract. A contract is part of communicating how we will work together. Demonstrate that you're competent by clearly communicating the changes you want and why you want them and if they react back poorly then you dodged a major bullet, since they'll also communicate poorly in…

I've been working in software for a long time, and have been asked to sign non-competes over a dozen times by now. I'm a contractor, which makes it much easier to turn down (how the hell could I possibly keep working with a non-compete?), but the OP is correct in that almost everything is a PDF nowadays. You have to bitch and scream to get a contract changed. Most naive workers won't understand that there's a negotia…

I've never had to send more than an email.

> Hey Frank, just read through the non-compete and I have a few small changes. 1. Since we're only working on a proto-type for a classifier for sorting documents can we amend the non-compete to specifically mention that domain? I don't want to limit my options unnecessarily but I appreciate you wanting to stop me from turning around and selling this stuff to Microsoft once you're done. 2. The term is unlimited right now, which I'm not even sure if that can stand up in court. Let's cap it at 2 years from project completion or my leaving the project. If it's easier for you to just agree to these changes over email just reply by saying "Sure Zach, these changes are completely reasonable." and I'll sign and add "with agreed changes" next to my signature.

That will 100% stand up in court, and really if they say "no" to it then you say "no" to the opportunity, but I've never not been able to get to an agreement with someone. Good help is hard to find, and a little charisma goes a long way when negotiating.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#117

Post by rhapsodic » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:35 PM UTC

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #65

This is a kind of feudalism, where the peasants need to rely on the strength of lords and their knights (lawyers) to enjoy basic freedoms.

>This is a kind of feudalism, where the peasants need to rely on the strength of lords and their knights (lawyers) to enjoy basic freedoms.

Actually, I think it's a hallmark of a free society where consenting adults are able to enter into, or not, any agreements they choose. The problem is that some people make bad choices in the agreements they commit to, or they enter them in bad faith, not intending to honor them, and when the chickens come to roost, we're instructed to feel sorry for them by writers at the New York Times.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#118

Post by mikeash » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:36 PM UTC

hammock wrote: post #63

mikeash wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never been presented with one (and hope I never will) so this is hypothetical, but I have a hard time imagining even doing that. A company is paying me to work for them, they're not paying to own me. When I'm off the clock, my time is my own, up to and including doing paid work for anyone else I want. I'd make an exception if they increased my pay accordingly. But considering that they're asking for 4.2x more of…

>A company is paying me to work for them, they're not paying to own me. When I'm off the clock, my time is my own, up to and including doing paid work for anyone else I want. Suboptimal if you're working for a direct competitor. Standard conflict of interest stuff. Would you accept Donald Trump working for Russia on the night shift? Remember, non-compete is not the same as IP clause - which says anything you create o…

Donald Trump gets paid more than enough to be considered to be on the clock 24/7, and it's generally understood that this is the nature of that job.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#119

Post by marcosdumay » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:38 PM UTC

joeblow9999 wrote: post #51

logicallee wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you have to fix an unenforceable clause at all? On moral principle? Are they gonna tell you over some barbeque, "Hey by the way Bill you know and I know that we can't TECHNICALLY enforce the clause preventing you from working in this industry for two years after leaving your position with us but we both know that it was very shitty of you to take a job in this same sector." Who's going to say that with a strai…

There is the small issue of whether or not your personal integrity allows you to sign an agreement you do not intend to abide, regardless of the legality.

Well, somebody is trying to impose something so absurd onto you that it is illegal, and you still have moral issues about lying to him?

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#120

Post by fnj » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:38 PM UTC

_red wrote: post #40

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #8

Using "poaching" to describe a company hiring someone from another company, needs to die. Companies do not own people. It is strictly a business relationship. I think that the US as a whole should follow California in outlawing non-competes. It definitely has been shown to be workable.

Agreed with the silly use of the name 'poaching'. But how exactly is the state preventing two people voluntarily entering into a contract a good thing? Its pointless anyway, a first year law student will just rewrite as non-circumvent + no-solicit + NDA agreements.

Most societies consider that there are certain human rights (the right to make one's livelihood in this case) which should not be subject to voluntarily relinquishing. Do you think it would be a fine thing to allow signing oneself into involuntary servitude, for example?