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Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

npr.org

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Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#111

Post by rando832 »

throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

> If a team of hundred of engineers struggle with their codebase internally, Joe Farmer isn't going to have a fucking clue how to repair their software correctly.

> But trust me on this, locking this down is a very good idea.

Joe Farmer may not know, but Joe farmer has "the internet", and ability to pay an independent software engineer. And people would absolutely find and fix bugs that john deer is missing.

Honestly, your argument sounds so ridiculous, it sounds like saying "it's to protect the children from terrorism."

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#112

Post by tzs »

throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

It doesn't sound like the farmers are asking to rewrite or replace that software. It sounds like they are just asking to be able to make the same kind of repairs that their local dealer makes.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#113

Post by goodplay »

throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

Let people run their own software. If they kill someone, hold them liable. If deaths become endemic, then consider locking them down.

As many comments on these stories demonstrate, farmers have as much valid reasons to have control over their equipment as John Deere has for preventing it.

Technology is always about trade-offs. It's just that John Deere took things too far.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#114

Post by arkis22 »

Everybody likes to feel taken advantage of.

If I was a business owner or engineer that built systems this complex and you asked me to not lock it down, I'd call you freaking crazy.

These are very expensive and complex machines, and you want my competition or some farmer who has no idea what he's doing to access and modify it?

No thank you.

Google keeps proprietary code. And that's for auto complete...

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#115

Post by nickpsecurity »

Cyph0n wrote: post #52
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this constantly but it doesn't ring true to me. Look at the 3D printer inventors from the 1980's who rested on their laurels selling $30,000 3D printers until their patents expired and the open source community started producing them for under $1000. Ten years after the patents expired, you can get a 3D printer for $199 that genuinely rivals the quality of a $30,000 printer just 10 years ago. There are all man…

But would the innovation that led to the creation of 3D printers have taken place if patent law didn't exist? And since the open source movement is based entirely on those patents (as I understand), would cheap 3D printers exist if the 1980s tech was never developed? I think these are the questions you should be thinking about when arguing against IP protection laws. Edit : One thing you failed to mention is that the…

Definitely. Someone else here pointed out all the greatest innovations in CompSci came during 1960-1980's when patent suits were much lower. Mostly government or corporate R&D just pushing the envelope. There's ways to do good hardware-level security I can't touch because the patent creates too much leverage on me. And many vague patents by "Non-Practicing Entities" who didn't build crap cover the same area. I could be hit with who knows how many suits. And looking at them triples the damages so I don't. Only reason I know about those is I accidentally found them googling CompSci papers.

You can bet companied and Universities will still invent stuff if there aren't patents. The companies will do it or acquire it for competitive advantage. The Universities for prestige, investments from companies, creating talented workforce, and so on. Im for software patents, esp on INFOSEC, to be banned entirely as I see no negative impact on high-impact projects.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#116

Post by nickpsecurity »

csydas wrote: post #82
Cyph0n wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But would the innovation that led to the creation of 3D printers have taken place if patent law didn't exist? And since the open source movement is based entirely on those patents (as I understand), would cheap 3D printers exist if the 1980s tech was never developed? I think these are the questions you should be thinking about when arguing against IP protection laws. Edit : One thing you failed to mention is that the…

Well you don't even need to look just at commercially available products - just look at the FOSS landscape for what gets produced when there is no financial incentive or IP law to protect the material - certainly we would be in a much different place technology wise if we didn't have FOSS as the backbone for a grand majority of technology that exist on the market today, and all of that FOSS was created without the fi…

It's a great point. I'll add that even big companies and government that push for patents use tons of FOSS software because it's better for them. Says a lot, eh? ;)

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#117

Post by pavement »

swampthinker wrote: post #99
Sytten wrote: post #85

My dad is a farmer and I can assure you that this is a real problem. Every piece of equipment now as its own proprietary, closed-source and, most of the time, incompatible software. Plus, many of them don't get any update after the product launch. When you are in rush to plant or harvest you just can`t afford to wait for an authorized dealer. And if they fail, good luck trying to find a replacement that is not 100x o…

Sounds like an opportunity...

...for famine.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#118

Post by nickpsecurity »

LVB wrote: post #108
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #26

I think we'd all be better off if basically everything was open source, by way of eliminating intellectual property protections provided by governments. As an alternate solution, those of us with engineering skills can work to create an open source economy with open source factories, computers, and products. This would never be a problem nor would it be likely to happen if genuinely competitive options existed for fa…

OK I've gotta ask, with such a strong push for "eliminating intellectual property protections", why bother with this footer on your site: © 2017 Objective Bias. All rights reserved.

It's a tangent but I'm all for calling out hipocracy. Author should've used Creative Commons or public domain.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#120

Post by nickpsecurity »

problems wrote: post #78
Consultant32452 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much more the bunghole of the RIAA/MPAA would tighten up with DRM if it wasn't even illegal to copy stuff they publish with reckless regard. You'd basically have to outlaw DRM too, or everyone would just make their stuff unusable/uncopyable.

Hah, are you kidding? Even the most advanced VM based protections are routinely bypassed by crackers. Things which have an analog hole vulnerability are just too easy. The only way something like that would happen is a big shift in hardware towards tamper resistant stuff with hardware crypto. And if all the RE work on that tamper resistant hardware could be done in public things would get... very fun.

At a distance maybe. The mitigations in smartcards or HSM can take expensive teardowns. Especially if on flagship CPU's on advanced nodes. I prefer the DRM'ers stay with software.
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