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Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

economist.com

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Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#111

Post by m-j-fox »

chaostheory wrote: post #9

> The common perception that China is incapable of innovation needs re-examining. No one is saying Chinese people can't innovate. The real question is whether Chinese people can innovate while inside China. (I wonder what percentage of current captains of industry in China studied abroad?) Why? Because innovation is essentially disrupting and rebelling against the status quo. ie breaking rules, disobedience, oppositi…

> When your culture is very antagonistic towards people who don't like the status quo and forces them to carefully think about what they say and write, the culture itself becomes a big obstacle to innovation.

Oh. You mean, like, hacker news?

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#112

Post by che_shirecat »

SexyCyborg wrote: post #96

Ok, I'm probably more engaged in discussing and promoting Shenzhen with Westerners in English than any other Shenzhen resident. I'm a Hackaday contributor, tweet and vblog about it with more followers than any other local, all that. I'm also the most prolific Maker as Westerners tend to define "Maker" in Shenzhen, maybe China. No, I'm not bragging, check around. >Shenzhen has only a handful of lacklustre institutions…

the seed for a lively Maker culture is there though and I think that's where the article got it mostly right. shenzhen's unique access to a cornucopia of the world's hardware is bound to prompt more open minds to start tinkering and hacking than somewhere else where that sort of organic community growth would have never even taken root. There are definitely limitations - social stigma as you mentioned, a culture that worships the tried and true road to social ladder climbing (good test scores -> good university -> good job -> ??) and looks down on anything else. But then again, that's the whole cyberpunk dream right? it's the losers and the weirdos and the nerds of society that will have outsized impact in our high-tech future. and if any city is destined to be the cyberpunk mecca of 2050, it's shenzhen. love your stuff by the way, you're probably the first exposure alot of westerners have to the Shenzhen scene on reddit and other sites. have you lived in the US? always been curious where you picked up your fluency in english and western culture

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#113

Post by SexyCyborg »

che_shirecat wrote: post #112
SexyCyborg wrote: post #96

Ok, I'm probably more engaged in discussing and promoting Shenzhen with Westerners in English than any other Shenzhen resident. I'm a Hackaday contributor, tweet and vblog about it with more followers than any other local, all that. I'm also the most prolific Maker as Westerners tend to define "Maker" in Shenzhen, maybe China. No, I'm not bragging, check around. >Shenzhen has only a handful of lacklustre institutions…

the seed for a lively Maker culture is there though and I think that's where the article got it mostly right. shenzhen's unique access to a cornucopia of the world's hardware is bound to prompt more open minds to start tinkering and hacking than somewhere else where that sort of organic community growth would have never even taken root. There are definitely limitations - social stigma as you mentioned, a culture that…

>love your stuff by the way, you're probably the first exposure alot of westerners have to the Shenzhen scene on reddit and other sites.

Thanks!

>have you lived in the US? always been curious where you picked up your fluency in english and western culture

No, never been to the West I'm entirely locally educated. When I first posted on Reddit I just tried to reply to everyone- and I was usually on my phone so my English was very careless. After a while I realized my "chat Chinglish" really made it hard for people to take me seriously. I slowed down, started using my computer, Grammerly is a huge help but for important stuff like the above post or my Hackaday article there's a small group of overseas educated friends that help me proofread my posts. I make all my stuff and document it all carefully on video, but you'll see regular disclaimers when my English has been polished for readability (but not content).

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#114

Post by enraged_camel »

Retric wrote: post #98
ajross wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least some of that may be simple circumstance. When GDP growth is at 7%, it makes more sense for the oligarchs to invest in whatever is hot than it does to steal (everyone's getting rich, why take the risk and make the enemies?). The US remains mostly uncorrupt at 2.2%. Russia's GDP growth is at 1.3% per my quick google search, which is well underneath inflation. If you're sitting at the top with a mostly asset-do…

US has high levels of corruption at the top, it's just better hidden and less accessible to most people. The secret is changing how the rules operate instead of selective enforcement.

>>US has high levels of corruption at the top, it's just better hidden and less accessible to most people.

It is hidden... in broad daylight. For example, what is lobbying, if not legalized corruption?

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#115

Post by m-j-fox »

m-j-fox wrote: post #111
chaostheory wrote: post #9

> The common perception that China is incapable of innovation needs re-examining. No one is saying Chinese people can't innovate. The real question is whether Chinese people can innovate while inside China. (I wonder what percentage of current captains of industry in China studied abroad?) Why? Because innovation is essentially disrupting and rebelling against the status quo. ie breaking rules, disobedience, oppositi…

> When your culture is very antagonistic towards people who don't like the status quo and forces them to carefully think about what they say and write, the culture itself becomes a big obstacle to innovation. Oh. You mean, like, hacker news?

Every downvote proves my point. Flag me to oblivion nazis!

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#116

Post by lowglow »

Animats wrote: post #7

The "maker movement" is alive in Shentzen, but mostly dead in Silicon Valley. TechShop is mostly crafters, not people building anything innovative. Hacker Dojo is appslaves. If there's a maker space in Silicon Valley with a pick and place machine, I can't find it.

I'd love to start one actually. Hit me up if you're interested. We've been working on Baqqer (https://baqqer.com/) to connect the resources/spaces with hackers. I see a big gap for innovation with a multidisciplinary space for engineering, science, and entrepreneurship.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#117

Post by Canada »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #109
dredmorbius wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a particularly clear distinction, care to expand / unpack?

"Rule by law" is the use of law to control the people. You use laws as convenient to punish your enemies, but aren't particularly interested in enforcing laws fairly. It becomes more of the default whenever there is no independent judiciary to interpret the law, or an independent media to make sure the government stays honest. "Rule of law" is the aspiration that we are used to in the west (fair application of the la…

With over a billion people in the country, the highest levels of leadership can't easily stop the kind of corruption that most businesses are victimized by: Extortion by local officials. It's like, they walk in to your factory, claim your fire extinguishers are not regulation, and demand that you buy a dozen of them from their friend and no one else, and it's going to cost you 50,000 RMB ($7k USD). And if you don't go and get them, right now, then they're taking the keys to your factory, kicking out all the employees (who you will still have to pay) and not letting anyone back in until you do. And it has to be cash. And no, you're not getting a receipt.

Or it will be things like, you order something, it's not delivered even close to spec, and the corrupt police make you pay for it anyway or else. Contracts are utterly meaningless. And of course this only starts happening when you start making money. And they'll know you're making money because the locals around you are definitely ratting you out and quite possibly in on it.

You need to have the right friends to avoid this, and those kind of friends cost money.

Our systems aren't perfect, but it's rare we have to put up with shit like that.

Still, I like it here. The cost of living is reasonable, the weather is good, it's a big city with lots of entertainment, and a lot of people are here doing stuff. Being right next to Hong Kong is also a big plus. Biggest downside is how bad the internet sucks.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#118

Post by finid »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #86
finid wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything comes and goes. It's just the nature of things. When it's your time to lead the pack, you will, regardless of the cultural environment. Most of us (in the West) don't know it yet, but we're already in the Chinese Age . How long will their time last? The funny thing about the influence of culture on innovation is that when this country (USA) was rewriting the rules and breaking down boundaries this way and…

Empires are transient, and the more they try to control the people they rule, the more transient they become. China has bet the farm on continual economic growth, and that worked for a while, but they're close to parity with the west now, so maintaining that rate of progress is going to become much more difficult. When the government fails to deliver continual rapid quality of life improvements, autocracy is going to…

I agree that China will eventually become a democratic country, but that will even make it stronger, not weaker. China is just getting started, so they're far from collapsing.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#119

Post by LiweiZ »

Hexcles wrote: post #105
chaostheory wrote: post #9

> The common perception that China is incapable of innovation needs re-examining. No one is saying Chinese people can't innovate. The real question is whether Chinese people can innovate while inside China. (I wonder what percentage of current captains of industry in China studied abroad?) Why? Because innovation is essentially disrupting and rebelling against the status quo. ie breaking rules, disobedience, oppositi…

As a fellow Chinese who's been living in the West for a few years, I feel obligated to speak out against this: Although I hold strong dissent against Chinese government in many aspects (in particular censorship, e.g. GFW), although I agree the traditional norm of Chinese culture and society does not commend rebellions, your argument is a slippery slope at its best. Essentially, you are exaggerating from both ends: a.…

As a native Chinese, I think the parent commenter knows China better (on the right track but far from being a real expert). The parent looks at this from an outsider's point of view with limited info resources. Now, many of us Chinese think we know ourselves better. But that's simply not the case. This age is one of the most reflection-less in our history. The progress of science constantly brought up different perspectives of the world and there is so little applied to how we Chinese look at ourselves and the world. And the groups reflect most are younger poor students and people involved in trading in finance. Those so called democracy movement leaders and thinkers/observers/writers are just jokes producing brain-dead bullshit begging for fundings from either the ruling party or its opponents, if not both. I ended up with giving up looking for real light from contemporary Chinese contents a few years ago since there was only silence. Probably talked too much here, haha.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#120

Post by aub3bhat »

chaostheory wrote: post #9

> The common perception that China is incapable of innovation needs re-examining. No one is saying Chinese people can't innovate. The real question is whether Chinese people can innovate while inside China. (I wonder what percentage of current captains of industry in China studied abroad?) Why? Because innovation is essentially disrupting and rebelling against the status quo. ie breaking rules, disobedience, oppositi…

Good lord, this is a ridiculous comment, its truly shameful that its most upvoted.

Before you call out Chinese government on Great Firewall, What about Patent Trolls? Or the upcoming Physical wall south of the border? Painting an entire culture with a broad brush is stupid.

>> The real question is whether Chinese people can innovate while inside China.

To decisively refute your argument. The current leading company in Drones, is DJI The company was founded in 2006 by Frank Wang (Wāng Tāo, 汪滔). Who did not study Abroad.

Also they brought the most populous country in the world from extreme poverty to a near superpower status, and they managed to build home grown tech industry (Baidu, Didi) while intelligently keeping SV out. Is it ethical & moral that's a different question, is it innovative? You bet it is!

If the only innovation is some stupid IOT microwave made (with heart emoji) in Silicon Valley by hipsters supporting bernie then you are utterly deluded. The chinese government is filled with geniuses. Refusing to term the enormous progress achieved by the Chinese government (filled mostly with Chinese who studied in China) as innovation is antithetical.

http://www.economist.com/news/business/21647981-chinese-firm...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DJI_(company)

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