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Canada seeks to end Uber's tax advantage over taxi companies

reuters.com

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Re: Canada seeks to end Uber's tax advantage over taxi companies

#111

Post by narrowrail »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #92
narrowrail wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to work for Landstar[0], which operates in a very similar way to Uber, but in the trucking industry. The company has been around for almost 30 years and the drivers are considered Owner-Operators[1] (i.e. contractors). I was under the impression that an Uber driver could choose not to take any given fare(just like our truckers could). There seems to be some irrationality when it comes to Uber among my fellow e…

Imo the contractor designation should be limited to people who have pricing power for their work. Uber drivers have none.

I think that's a somewhat fair comment, and a t0pic worthy of discussion. According to wikipedia[0],

In economics and particularly in industrial organization, market power is the ability of a firm to profitably raise the market price of a good or service over marginal cost. In perfectly competitive markets, market participants have no market power.

I'm pretty sure I don't have the exact facts on what Uber's operating agreement with drivers is, but I always thought a given driver could choose to only drive during surge pricing, no? We always tried to manage our drivers for an elastic supply of capacity (much like an ad exchange). Otherwise, we'd be overwhelmed like the under-covered transport problem in Austin during SXSW (I believe a result of the lack of Uber availability). Uber's radio adverts explicitly state that it's "drive when you want for extra money," and if that is not what they actually offer then Lyft has a huge opportunity to acquire/retain more/better drivers and maintain a rapid ability to scale for capacity.

I am of the belief that Uber presents a unique opportunity to rethink the whole structure of unions in the US (I don't actually care if Canada bans Uber altogether, for example, I am more interested in the concepts themselves), and maybe a total rethink about how to organize labor.

I would have interest in building a commercial platform to help labor organize and coordinate themselves better (that they own) in the modern world. I think it would look like a gated digital community with microblogging, discussion, and voting functions.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_power

Re: Canada seeks to end Uber's tax advantage over taxi companies

#112

Post by jimmywanger »

madeofpalk wrote: post #53
thrill wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber drivers are not employees. They are independent contractors. Uber, as part of their service, collects money from riders, giving both the rider and the driver a comfort factor as they don't have to deal with cash. As "hobby" businesses they each individually were enjoying the exemption. Now they will not - because we can't have "hobby" businesses causing discomfort to the well connected.

Naa, that's bullshit. I download the Uber app, Uber finds me a ride, Uber sets the price, Uber charges me, and I pay Uber. Uber should be collecting GST/sales tax. I don't understand how else you could look at it! Uber is essentially doing the same thing here in Australia and the courts are getting involved to make a ruling.

The same thing applies to Manpower or any temp agency.

"I call manpower, manpower sets the price, manpower charges me, and I pay manpower!"

Except in that case temp agencies are clearly employing contractors, and thus don't have to pay GST.

Not everything is black and white. If they were, the government would easily have been able to block their actions. Right now they're trying to figure out what's going on and charge them appropriately.

Re: Canada seeks to end Uber's tax advantage over taxi companies

#113

Post by graeme »

qeternity wrote: post #82
graeme wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firm still collects GST though. It just doesn't need to pay GST to it's contractors. In practice, the firms net finance shouldn't be different regardless of whether they have employees or exempt contractors. Consumers contract with Uber, and pay Uber. So from what I can see, Uber should be collecting, for itself.

Fine, so knowing this, Uber collects GST and reduces the fare by the offsetting amount. In one pocket and out of the other. It's purely optics.

It's not purely optics. It's either an increase in Uber's prices, or a decrease in their margins.

By "collecting, for itself" I meant "for itself as the seller" rather than "collecting on behalf of its contractors"

Re: Canada seeks to end Uber's tax advantage over taxi companies

#114

Post by jacquesm »

username223 wrote: post #98
makmanalp wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I honestly to believe the tech industry can shoot a rocket into space and do any number of miraculous things, but can't create a solvent cab hailing service that pays workers living wages and basic benefits? The word benefits makes it sound like it's a luxury, but stuff like healthcare and retirement planning is anything but, especially for low income workers. Somehow when it comes to innovation, the last place we…

> Am I honestly to believe the tech industry can shoot a rocket into space and do any number of miraculous things, but can't create a solvent cab hailing service that pays workers living wages and basic benefits? Yes. The rocket thing is the current apogee of a (remarkably phallic) ego war between billionaires. Most automation that would truly benefit society is boring, low-margin work. There's no massive ROI in scru…

Not exactly a Musk fan but I think that he genuinely believes in his Mars back-up plan. Whether or not it is realistic, feasible at all or just dreaming is another matter but I don't think he's faking it or simply doing it because he's in a pissing match. He'd do it anyway.

Re: Canada seeks to end Uber's tax advantage over taxi companies

#115

Post by seanmcdirmid »

makmanalp wrote: post #88
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would basically mean the end of taxis and uber. Just mass public transportation and guys running everything by themselves would survive.

Am I honestly to believe the tech industry can shoot a rocket into space and do any number of miraculous things, but can't create a solvent cab hailing service that pays workers living wages and basic benefits? The word benefits makes it sound like it's a luxury, but stuff like healthcare and retirement planning is anything but, especially for low income workers. Somehow when it comes to innovation, the last place we…

> Am I honestly to believe the tech industry can shoot a rocket into space and do any number of miraculous things, but can't create a solvent cab hailing service that pays workers living wages and basic benefits?

Yes, one is a technical problem, the other is a political problem. The first one we just solve by being smarter, the second one...has anyone ever successfully managed to treat private drivers as employees rather than independents?

In my opinion, basic benefits should be provided to all citizens, not just the ones with the correct employment status. Note that in Canada, it's already like this, so this isn't what we are arguing about in this context. Contracting work is much easier to stomach in Canada because retirement and health is provided by the state rather than the company (and if the USA did the same thing, it would really make labor markets much more liquid).

At the end of the day, might as well turn this into a technical problem by getting rid of the driver...oh.

Re: Canada seeks to end Uber's tax advantage over taxi companies

#116

Post by OldSchoolJohnny »

rpeden wrote: post #14
flamedoge wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need a Canadian Taxi hailing app. We can make it.

Does that mean you're interested? If so, let's get some people together, organize an in-person or virtual meetup, and get the ball rolling.

Jesus are you serious? There are probably 500 separate taxi apps already in Canada.

Re: Canada seeks to end Uber's tax advantage over taxi companies

#118

Post by ubernostrum »

narrowrail wrote: post #80
peeters wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it quacks like a duck, it gets taxed like a duck. Uber has made a business out of exploiting legal loopholes. They know it, their users know it, the politicians know it. It's just been a race to close them. I have no sympathy for Uber in this. They obviously provide a valuable service to people, so I'm sure they'll survive. Now they'll just be competing on an even playing field.

I used to work for Landstar[0], which operates in a very similar way to Uber, but in the trucking industry. The company has been around for almost 30 years and the drivers are considered Owner-Operators[1] (i.e. contractors). I was under the impression that an Uber driver could choose not to take any given fare(just like our truckers could). There seems to be some irrationality when it comes to Uber among my fellow e…

In the US, at least, the employee/contractor difference is based on a number of factors, but one important factor is the level of control over the person doing the work. If you're setting their working hours, or deciding which jobs they'll take or how they'll do them, or setting their wage/pricing for them, etc., those are things which point toward the "they are an employee" side of the spectrum.

Re: Canada seeks to end Uber's tax advantage over taxi companies

#119

Post by patrickaljord »

legulere wrote: post #2

Slowly the price advantage that Uber has by using loopholes fades away.

Yeah, how dare them offer a service both riders and drivers were happy using and helped hundreds of thousands poor make more money. Wilful adults entering mutually beneficial agreements? Government can't allow that insanity. Quick! Let's regulate it to death to make sure it sucks as much as what we had before. Make sure to justify it on taxes, people will buy the narrative and blame it on the evil corporation and not on the innocent incorruptible government.

Re: Canada seeks to end Uber's tax advantage over taxi companies

#120

Post by avtar »

tensor wrote: post #27
flamedoge wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need a Canadian Taxi hailing app. We can make it.

You mean like this? http://www.itbusiness.ca/news/canadian-alternative-to-uber-l... Sadly it doesn't address any of the problems with cabs in Toronto. 1. Cabs won't take credit cards by claiming "the machine is broken" when it's not, presumably so that they can avoid reporting tips or fees, or they might just skim your card. 2. Cabs are too expensive. 3. Cabs might not even take you if they figure the ride isn't wort…

> 1. Cabs won't take credit cards by claiming "the machine is broken" when it's not, presumably so that they can avoid reporting tips or fees, or they might just skim your card.

I find more cabs don't use that excuse now since Uber has been breathing down their necks. Also, since you mention Toronto, there's the Beck Taxi iOS app. With it you can pick the pickup location, destination, hop in the cab, and when leaving the driver declares that the trip is over which charges one's PayPal account. It's not as cheap but if someone wants to use cabs over Uber based on principle then there other convenient options.

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