Live data from Hacker News

Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

1843magazine.com

111–120 of 535 posts

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#111
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a real possibility, but consider thinking about it this way: Many jobs do not provide (marginal utility > income) to society, and many even produce negative marginal utility. Everything from utility companies to the financial sector to government to even academia has a heck of a lot of perverse incentives and corruption. Over half a century ago John Maynard Keynes--one of the most influential intellectuals to sh…

> Many jobs do not provide (marginal utility > income) to society, and many even produce negative marginal utility. What are some examples of this? Why are people paying those workers?

Lots of jobs produce pollution because it makes someone money.

Lots more jobs (medical billers) exist mostly in opposition of other people (insurance adjusters).

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#112
I'm a 26 year old male and never got any deeper into video games than some intense rounds of Mario Kart in college. I've played others but generally lose interest and move on quickly. Doubt I've played a video game in a few years at this point. What follows is likely senseless babbling and bullshit armchair pop psychology.

The prevalence of video games among young men frightens me, in two ways:

First, in the development of narcissism in teens. In so many video games, you play the hero—the one man left who can save the world! The fate of everything rests on you and you alone for those hours while you're plugged in. Pumping music, suspense, surprise and eventually reward. How can this not fuel the development of narcissism amongst growing boys? You play as the only person who can succeed and you're rewarded for that success, but without real-world troubles like concern for others' feelings. No, I'm not a psychiatrist, but can't we imagine that at least some boys become addicted to that sensation?

My hypothesis is that video games in boys and teens can fuel narcissistic disorders. Not in all, but in some.

That leads us to the second reason I'm frightened of the prevalence of video games.

I recognize that as a man in a burgeoning industry (software) and a dynamic city (Boulder/Denver), I'm not subject to the same economic pressures as the average American male my age.

My concern is that (by my first theory) we have a growing group of young men with narcissism problems. They are also coming of age in an economy which increasingly doesn't need them. Their job—and therefore romantic—prospects are poor.

A large group of narcissistic men unable to find recognition at work or in love, yearning for the reward stimulation they once got from their Xbox. Most will muddle along, merely dissatisfied.

Narcissists, of course, do not blame themselves for their problems. Those are the fault of others.

So is it that much of a leap to imagine how this fuels movements like the alt-right? Certainly, unemployed men have been a source of strife throughout history. When I read the rhetoric of the alt-right, either their leaders or those who subscribe to the philosophy, it's impossible not to hear the language of revenge and envy.

Revenge against not just successful individuals—those with careers, love, success, recognition, fueled by petty envy—but also revenge against the entire system that now conspires, supposedly, against these men, preventing them from achieving their proper position and the recognition they deserve.

They see a society celebrating women, minorities, the educated, the talented and crave the same. Society does not celebrate them. So that society, therefore, must be abolished.

Men are growing up with a desire for recognition, they are failing to find that recognition and that leads them to lash out.

----

Thus endeth my theory.

It's probably a load of crap. But I'm also sure it describes some posters here on HN. I know it describes some friends of mine.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#113
post #19

I really like this read, something just smells off about blaming young people for "wasting years" on video games. We've got a horribly stacked real life "game" where the boomers and elites have horded everything and fucked future generations, blaming an individual for dropping out and not wanting to really participate in that trainwreck is being dishonest at best.

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of truth in that. Still, the bit about the guy who went to law school and decided not to practice, opting instead to play video games, and for whom finances were no biggie because parents... Jiminy Christmas, WTF is up with that.

Right, but the author spent three paragraphs on Chris from Ipswitch who's a contractor in the health-sector who rarely gets work and can't get an employer to help train him. It's not exactly like Chris is running away from some lucrative alternative to spend his time playing videogames.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that many of these games are skinner boxes that our brains have relatively few defenses against, but Chris is a stupid example.

I'd also guess that many people who trash video games would happily say watching baseball, perhaps playing baseball, opera, or chess are somehow superior. It's not like those have much intrinsic value in them besides the enjoyment they may generate for the participant.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#114
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with the sentiment, but isn't your own comment being dishonest? There's plenty of land in the United States, and plenty of cities that have hardly been met with the "hoarding" you mention. That being said, living in Boston, MA, I totally feel what you're saying (literally, most of the houses here are expensive, even in crappy areas).

The same is true out here in Australia. Places like Melbourne and Sydney are crowded and expensive, but the cheaper properties are all out in rural areas, where your choice of employment is slim, especially if you made the "mistake" of training in any tech sector job.

Just live in the lame ass suburbs like everyone else. What the fuck is wrong with you people? Are you going to be on your deathbed wishing you had more squid ink pasta and museums in your life? No, you'll wish you spent more time your loved ones, which you can do anywhere.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#115
post #104
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really dislike the romanticizing of employment as "solving problems." The effect of employment is that somebody's problems get solved, but as the employee, they aren't my problems, and subjectively it feels like mostly solving a lot of meta-problems like how to follow somebody else's process and get along with all kinds of coworkers. If employment felt like object-level problem solving, I'd be employed.

Your objective is to get a paycheck. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that. Then, use your off time do things more important to you.

Getting that paycheck saps the majority of the time and energy of a given person. Using a paycheck as a side effect to actually do something useful seems like a very strange system.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#116
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with the sentiment, but isn't your own comment being dishonest? There's plenty of land in the United States, and plenty of cities that have hardly been met with the "hoarding" you mention. That being said, living in Boston, MA, I totally feel what you're saying (literally, most of the houses here are expensive, even in crappy areas).

The same is true out here in Australia. Places like Melbourne and Sydney are crowded and expensive, but the cheaper properties are all out in rural areas, where your choice of employment is slim, especially if you made the "mistake" of training in any tech sector job.

Adelaide, Perth, Brisbane, Canberra, The Gold Coast and Newcastle all have better prices for real estate.

Canberra is the most affordable city in the country.

Sydney and Melbourne just are not worth it any more unless you and a partner earn 200K+ or you have property there.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#117
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to derail because I think you have a valid point, but I believe alcoholism is still a way worse problem today. If I'm remembering correctly, it's something like the same number of people die due to alcohol every year in the US as shoot themselves death (~30k)... and that's just fatalities; if we're talking family problems it's way higher.

Alcoholism is certainly still a thing, but there is a generation of young people these days who simply aren't drinking. Some do, and do so to an excess, but something like like half of collage-educated young people just don't. It isn't religion or ideology and so they aren't shouting it from rooftops. They just don't want to drink. For me it started at university. I was riding a motorcycle to class and a job with ins…

That's in the UK, do they have the same insanely high alcohol tax as Australia?

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#118
post #59
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really hits home for me. Seems like every older family member I have just has tons and tons of useless stuff. I dont get it.

They also have the useful stuff, like property that was reasonably priced at the time of purchase.

I have more real estate than all of them combined actually, but that's not really what I meant. The stuff they have purchased and still own is baffling. It's all cheap, throw away, walmart crap. Compare this to the things I've saved from my grandparents and great grandparents which are mostly heirloom quality and the difference is striking.

The wastefulness is simply depressing.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#119
Once again, blaming the drug for the addiction.

Maybe if life were, frankly, worth living; more people might choose to.

I'm a young man who just wants to live a decent life, marry a nice girl, and have a family some time in the next decade and a half. I have a promising career, I never really had to try to make money.

I can tell you that if life weren't so easy for me, I would probably just spend every day masturbating, eating ramen, and playing video games.

I thank my lucky stars that I was born middle class with a well-above-average IQ, met so many wonderful people who have stuck by me, and that I have the chance to live in a great city.

The world hates weak men. Video games are a great way to enjoy an otherwise empty life in a world full of people who think you're a waste of everything you cost. Nobody should blame them for doing what makes sense with what they have.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#120

What is the labor market, if not an interminable, poorly designed MMORPG? Most of us will be alive by the time there's enough economic incentive for all the things humanity needs, with only a token labor force. Many of the world's richest countries are already there, at least when it comes to their own citizens. In the future (i.e. the present, in the software world), to the extent that employers need workers, they g…

Your assumptions rest on some very big claims, such as being able to work part time as a low end labour worker. I can't imagine how that would come about in a natural market unless cost of goods dropped even further, and that's not possible through automation alone. Food for example, still needs huge resources and even if it's 100% automated you can't avoid the use of the finite resources required for it.

I do appreciate your optimism though, and I really hope we can work out how to arrive at a solution to the myriad of new problems without everything falling apart first.

We need to show initiative, as it's going to be a race between preserving quality of life with proactive policy and the very quickly changing labour landscape removing the means to participate in the way communities are currently structured.

Post reply on HN