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Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

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Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#111

Post by awg789 »

dang wrote: post #77
tornadoboy55 wrote: post #56

The problem is that when a 45yr old man dates a 25yr old girl all the women rabble and call him a pig, but when a woman will only date a man who 'can provide' its 'only natural'. You see the same issue crop up in tons of things. They tried to ban 'lad mags' in the U.K, but there was no talk of banning so-called kitchen romances (the shitty paperback stuff middle-adged moms love to buy in the supermarket). Iceland tri…

If you want a decent dialog you need to practice decent dialog yourself. That begins with dropping weaponized generalities like "feminist outrage" and "Women of the West have succeeded in perpetually shaming men" (edit: and, of course, the same the other way around). Every side in divisive arguments lobs such weapons at each other. We all know exactly what those leads to on the internet: more of the same, only worse.…

> If you want a decent dialog you need to practice decent dialog yourself. That begins with dropping weaponized generalities like "feminist outrage" ...

If you want a decent dialog on HN, you should drop weaponized generalities such as saying that "feminist outrage" is a weaponized generality. Weaponized how? Generality how? The "feminist outrage" is a clearly defined phenomenon that is abundant, and in no way it is a "generality" or "weaponized".

> "Women of the West have succeeded in perpetually shaming men"

okay that one may be a "weaponized generality". I guess you're right on this one. But you get startingly closer to truth if you change "women" to "feminists". As for the "shaming of men" by someone, that certainly isn't a generality, and while I'm not going to post a barrage of links just to prove me right (on my newly created account), I vehemently believe you can find abundant amount of examples just by searching the internet.

> Every side in divisive arguments lobs such weapons at each other. We all know exactly what those leads to on the internet: more of the same, only worse. We don't want that kind of war on HN. We want thoughtful discussion, which means dropping preconceived formulations and really engaging with each other.

Agreed. Discussion typically happens when participants drop feelings from arguments and try to engage each other rationally. (Or at least, that's one way to look at it). So why are you putting the guy down for expressing his opinion (while not insulting others)?

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#112

Post by pm90 »

J-dawg wrote: post #93
Frondo wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this, a thousand times this. People look at stuff like alimony or whatever and think "oh women just get all the breaks". When really, stuff like that exists because women were expected to forego career for marriage, etc., essentially shackled to a man for life. Women being independent, expecting a guy to have his shit together? I think that's great. I say bring it on. Independent women are far more interesting t…

So what do you do when there simply aren't enough jobs for most men to "have their shit together"? What are all those men going to do when they have both no stake in the economy, and little or no chance of finding a woman to love them? What percentage of men like this can society handle before some sort of tipping point is reached? I refer you to this comment from "wingless" from another discussion currently on the f…

> A woman is working for the money and whatever satisfaction she derives from the job itself. A man is working for his ability to attract a girlfriend, his status in society, his entire sense of "value". It's hardly surprising that men are motivated to choose riskier and higher earning careers.

I don't mean to go all PC police on you, especially since I agree with the first part of your comment, but this is most certainly not the case with most millennials (and even many women of the generation before). Most of the young women I meet today very much subscribe to the same notion of getting their sense of worth through their jobs, independence etc. So I would argue they are playing the same "game" in the employment market. However, our (US) society continues to propagate certain gender-stereotypes about careers which seep into all other aspects of our culture as well. e.g. its much more acceptable/common to be a female engineer in China and India. Now once these stereotypes are removed, you would see a lot more cross-participation which would be REALLY good for the US economy.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#113

Post by oh_sigh »

bobbytherobot wrote: post #60
jokoon wrote: post #2

I've started some treatment recently, and for some reason I immediately started dating and looking for mates again. I quickly realized how difficult it is. You can't find women unless you have a job, while women have made outstanding progress in education and the workforce, and for some reason they have a hard time dating people who have a less comfortable situation than themselves. I don't want to ride the whole men…

> One generation behind us, women still sort of relied on men, and now that the tables have turned, women might need to make a compromise. You mean the system was heavily stacked to make women reliant on men. I won't call that a compromise. The tables haven't turned, the game changed. We have drastically removed many of the forces meant to keep women as dependents of men. If the tables had turned, then men would be s…

> They most certainly are not being kept out of those jobs.

What about college graduation rates? New college grads are heavily biased in favor of women, and women earn more money than male counterparts on average(until some decide to take off in their career to have/raise kids).

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#114

Post by pm90 »

codingdave wrote: post #7
jokoon wrote: post #2

I've started some treatment recently, and for some reason I immediately started dating and looking for mates again. I quickly realized how difficult it is. You can't find women unless you have a job, while women have made outstanding progress in education and the workforce, and for some reason they have a hard time dating people who have a less comfortable situation than themselves. I don't want to ride the whole men…

Your edit is right... your view on this is clearly heavy with your personal situation. But the bigger perspective is that for a relationship to work, both sides need to contribute. Whether the old-fashioned way where the man works while the wife take care of kids, or both work, or the wife works while the man take care of kids, or something completely different... the point is that both sides need to contribute. Take…

Well, a few generations ago, Men were OK with being in that kind of relationships. In fact, it was a culturally enforced value that the "Man should pay for everything" and it seemed to work fine.

I agree with your premise that unequal incomes (especially if they are glaring) can be a significant barrier to relationships. But what if e.g. the woman makes enough for the both of them, and all she is looking for in a partner is emotional well being, someone to talk/share activities etc.

So its not just a money thing IMO. It seems like the US culture has still not adopted to the economic realities of today. And it hurts everyone: a woman may know that she doesn't care about income differences and wants a partner for other reasons, but she will be dissuaded from pursuing such relationships by her friends/family etc.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#115

Post by hprotagonist »

dukeluke wrote: post #66
hprotagonist wrote: post #4

I don't know that gender has much to do, necessarily, with the fact that it's hard to find a partner when your life consists of not doing much and watching reruns. The guilt-shame-depression-guilt cycle is certainly reinforced in non-working men by indoctrination in a particular strain of patriarchal gender roles. Having a little voice in the back of your head constantly yelling at you for being a failure and "not re…

The evolutionary strategies are different between the genders, mostly because the biologically expensive act of growing a child for months and raising it for years means women need to be more selective towards their mates.

I pretty much regard "well, sexual pressures on evolution!" to be the biologist's cop-out answer when they don't actually know what's going on.

I am male, and I would not want to date a woman who spends all day watching TV and nothing else, either.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#116

Post by J-dawg »

Frondo wrote: post #110
J-dawg wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do you do when there simply aren't enough jobs for most men to "have their shit together"? What are all those men going to do when they have both no stake in the economy, and little or no chance of finding a woman to love them? What percentage of men like this can society handle before some sort of tipping point is reached? I refer you to this comment from "wingless" from another discussion currently on the f…

What I'd do is this: 1) Vote for politicians who are going to create real structural change in society, e.g. Bernie, not just systems maintainers like Hillary, or rich guys who want to rip us off, like the guy who won. (And really work at a local level to enact structural systems changes!) 2) Work to change the cultural baggage around one's value being tied to one's day job. Make it sexy to be a poet, writer, singer,…

>Make it sexy to be a poet, writer, singer, househusband, whatever, derive personal/interpersonal value from something other than a career.

I would dearly love to believe this is possible, but I fear it's not. I don't think (most) women are capable of overcoming their programming to seek a high-status provider.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#117

Post by dominotw »

bobbytherobot wrote: post #60
jokoon wrote: post #2

I've started some treatment recently, and for some reason I immediately started dating and looking for mates again. I quickly realized how difficult it is. You can't find women unless you have a job, while women have made outstanding progress in education and the workforce, and for some reason they have a hard time dating people who have a less comfortable situation than themselves. I don't want to ride the whole men…

> One generation behind us, women still sort of relied on men, and now that the tables have turned, women might need to make a compromise. You mean the system was heavily stacked to make women reliant on men. I won't call that a compromise. The tables haven't turned, the game changed. We have drastically removed many of the forces meant to keep women as dependents of men. If the tables had turned, then men would be s…

>If the tables had turned, then men would be systematically be kept out of jobs, particularly high paying careers.

hundreds of thousands of men that we have imprisoned, thousands of men with mental health issues and drug addictions. men that took a wrong turn in life and ended up homeless, destitute or in the prison.

These men have been systematically kept out of jobs. There has to be special kind of hypocrisy in action to conclude society influences women's choices( eg: giving them barbie/pink toys) and prevents them from having a STEM career and yet turn around and say men at bottom belong there because of their own failings. Men at the bottom must pay the price for the 'privilege' enjoyed by men at top.

According to the narrative, a rich woman is 'systematically be kept out of jobs' while a poor boy man in a war/drug-torn urban environment is not. I just hate this line of thought so much.

Sex is not a deterrent to one's success in todays America, parental income is, a privilege that can be precisely measured.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#119

Post by dang »

dandersh wrote: post #92
rrggrr wrote: post #49

"We will have to write off one to two entire generations". This from one industrial client who manages a workforce in the rural and suburban south. Why? The skills gap. Drug abuse, particularly meth. Competition from disability, welfare and black market income sources. I've heard similar from other clients. Their contempt for politicians stems largely from their perceptions that rural/middle America has been left to…

The results of the recent election were driven by inefficiencies in the American electoral system, such as the electoral college, gerrymandered districts that result in Republicans holding more seats than their vote totals would suggest, etc. The "skills gap" is largely a result of the actions of employers. There is disdain for on the job training for easily learnable, high access jobs such as waitstaff, cashiers, et…

> Middle America's stubborn refusal to move forward

This is a form of name-calling, which the site guidelines ask you not to do: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#120

Post by nodamage »

jack9 wrote: post #45
NumberSix wrote: post #15

The explanation is that the government massages unemployment figures to make the economy look better than it is. The government has been doing this for decades, under Republicans and Democrats, liberals and conservatives. Unemployment is one of the most widely watched and therefor political numbers; anyone who is in power wants it to look as good as possible. One of the tactics to make the official unemployment rates…

It's shocking, just plain shocking, how short people's memories are, in regards to their own governmental details. The manipulations to deflate the unemployment numbers, I was cognizant of in high school, have never stopped. New techniques come up every administration (seemingly every year). It's like how "the tech industry innovation value" is now added to the UDP arbitrarily. Smoke and mirrors. Google "US employed…

59.2% is quite misleading because it includes students and retirees. The next two paragraphs from your own source[1] say:

    One reason for the difference is that the share of Americans saying they 
    don’t want a job has trended up since the Great Recession: from 31.9% of
    the working-age population in October 2008 to 34.6% last month (on a 
    non-seasonally adjusted basis). Some of that increase, though, may be due
    to Baby Boomers reaching retirement age; as they leave the workforce over
    the next several years, labor economists expect the employment-to-population
    ratio to trend lower. Young adults staying in or returning to school also
    may be a factor.

    So if we look at just the 25-to-54 age group, which strips out most students
    and retirees, the employment-to-population ratio has been slowly improving
    since it bottomed out at 74.6% (not seasonally adjusted) in February 2011. 
    Last month, 77.3% of all 25-to-54-year-olds were employed, which is well below
    the indicator’s pre-recession high in October 2006, when 80.7% of people in 
    this age group were employed.
[1] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/11/07/employment-v...
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