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Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

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Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#111
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. The reason for wanting a tunnel at SpaceX headquarters specifically is to help the employees access their parking structures without being run over crossing the street: http://www.parabolicarc.com/2016/12/30/video-3-spacex-employ... "A news report about three SpaceX employees who were hit by a car on Dec. 17 after leaving work. The incident occurred at 2:15 a.m. About three hours later, SpaceX CEO Elon Mu…

> leaving work [...] 2:15 a.m. There's the problem.

How is there traffic at 2.15am to hit people though?

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#112
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think light rail is fantastic - in London we have the DLR which is fully automated (there is an assistant onboard who can override), and it's a thoroughly pleasant experience. We fondly call it the smallest rollercoaster :)

But it lowers property values close by, the noise is quite significant. So putting light rail in a tunnel would be the better option. If Musk can really lower costs, London would be a good client. I'm sure that if he could reduce construction costs for new tube lines by 80% (costs are mostly tunnels), there would be at least 4 new lines that could be approved quickly. After that, they'd still have money left over fro…

> costs are mostly tunnels

This is false. The costs of modern underground railways like Crossrail are mostly stations (particularly those in the city centres where property is expensive).

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#113
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which anti-environment Republicans has he donated to? As for the rest, look at what he (or at least his companies) have actually done. Tesla has succeeded in making electric cars cool. Their stated mission is to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable transport, and given the many long-range EVs announced by major car companies in the past few years, I think they've already succeeded at that. SpaceX has succ…

Marco Rubio. As per my last point, I don't know if Musk's "moonshots" will actually pan out. His businesses certainly are taking credit for just about everything that happens in tech, but I'm not convinced they're the ones leading the revolution.

Thanks for the info on Rubio, I wonder what the reason was for that.

On the other stuff, my point was that a lot of his stuff has already panned out, so your point doesn't make sense to me. Sure, it remains to be seen if EVs will take over the world, and you could certainly argue that they aren't responsible for all these other manufacturers starting to build EVs, but the fact remains that they built a pretty great car, and managed to be the first successful American automotive startup in a century. It remains to be seen if SpaceX's reusability plans will pan out, let alone the crazy Mars stuff, but the expendable Falcon 9, and the landings, are already great achievements.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The total number miles driven on roads will almost always go up when you build more roads, just like increasing the supply of apples will lead to more apples being eaten. (The rare exceptions would be if there are a fixed number of people taking a long circuitous route from A to B, and a shortcut road is built; then the fixed number of drivers would get there more directly, reducing the total number of miles driven.)…

We have one of those dynamic price roads around here. It starts out overpriced and goes up from there. It's basically the road for the 1%. Usage has been a quite a bit lower than the estimates so the taxpayers have been on the hook for lost profits. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/nov/17/not-so-fast-...

I heard once that there was a government-managed construction project not featuring dynamic pricing, and that it cost much more than expected so the taxpayers were on the hook for the cost.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#115

I generally find Elon Musk to be an offputting individual, but I struggle to disagree with most of his ideas. In dense urban areas, skyrocketing property costs and the erosion of eminent domain have made mass transit expansion unsustainable in terms of time and money. Tunneling under it all has the potential to sidestep so many costs. To do so, of course, he'll need to reduce the costs of tunnel boring by an order of…

One thing that isn't as obvious at first is how tunneling traffic under a city can greatly increase the walkability of the city. Look at Boston after the Big Dig. Neighborhoods that were previously cut in half are coming back together. Downtown is seen as a desirable place to be. It's a big QoL improvement for a city. I'm not sure if he will be able to bring the costs of tunnel boring down as much as you would like,…

Not sure if the Big Dig is a great project to reference here, it went over budget by some 200% and many years. It was seen as one of the greatest civil engineering mistakes by the end. Sure it improved the QoL, but what other projects that take less than some 15 billion dollars can improve QoL just as much?

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#116

I generally find Elon Musk to be an offputting individual, but I struggle to disagree with most of his ideas. In dense urban areas, skyrocketing property costs and the erosion of eminent domain have made mass transit expansion unsustainable in terms of time and money. Tunneling under it all has the potential to sidestep so many costs. To do so, of course, he'll need to reduce the costs of tunnel boring by an order of…

In what sense has eminent domain been eroded? Given that the Supreme Court ruled about ten years ago that eminent domain may even be used to make way for private enterprise it seems to me that it is quite powerful.

A close family member is an urban planner, and he blames a succession of legal challenges that have forced public entities to account for all sorts of value that the property could never actually attain. And, of course, the increase in number and density of holdouts has driven acquisition costs way, way up for large public projects, since time delays incur costs. Lawyers have learned that, even if the city/state makes a good offer, they can get a better one by grinding through the process slowly.

Eminent domain is a powerful (and easily abused) idea, but it's devilishly hard to strike the right balance between property owners' rights and the common good. At least on the West Coast, the scales seem to have tipped in favor of property owners.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#117
post #26

This is just a wild guess, but could there be more to it than just solving traffic problems? I mean, the best solution for a permanent settlement on Mars would be underground, as to shield from radiation etc. It's a funny thought, but it would make sense to aquire experience with large earth-moving operations to improve on the technology and study the feasibility.

It is also possible the tunnels could be privately financed and owned, which could have long term advantages for Tesla.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#118
post #81

I talked a little about this last week. I think he wants the tech to bore a hole close to the core of Mars and set off a nuke. This would restart natural lava flow in Mars which would then create self sustaining magnetic field. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13598876

That is not possible. At some point, your tunnel starts collapsing under the pressure and the great heat makes tunneling incredibly difficult. The deepest we've ever gotten on Earth is the Kola Superdeep Borehole (a Soviet project) that got 12km deep. On Mars, with the lower gravity and cooler center, we may get about triple that before reaching similar constraints in pressure and temperature. But no way you can get all the way to the core. Also, in order to melt the core, it'd take an insane amount of energy.

Mars' core is 6-21% of the mass of the planet. Mars has a mass of 6 * 10^23kg. Heat capacity of iron is 450J/(kg * degree C). To heat up the iron by 1000 degrees C (rough estimate of what'd be required, though even if this is off by an order of magnitude, it won't change the conclusion), you'd need to provide at least:

1000 * .06 * 6E23kg * 450J/kg = 1.62 * 10E28 Joules. That's equivalent to 3.9 * 10^12 Megatons of TNT. In other words, it'd take about a trillion H-bombs to do what you say. Not feasible, clearly!!!

Luckily, that's not required. You can simply build a superconducting cable around the planet. The ambient temperature is already near the critical temperature of some of our highest performing superconductors, but because the cable (or, likely, a series of large cables in parallel to keep the local field at the surface of the superconductor below the critical field strength) will be large, insulating it very well should not be a problem, and the energy needed to run the cryocoolers could be provided by solar panels installed on top of the cable. (Superconductors also can carry more current if you keep them colder, so it's usually a good idea to operate well below the critical temperature anyway.)

This would be pretty easy to do, easier than the initial terraforming steps (i.e. raising the surface pressure by melting/subliming the ice caps and heating the regolith via albedo modification, super greenhouse gases, giant space mirrors, or Musk's favorite pulsed fusion over the poles). The amount of material required isn't that high, either. And the cable can also provide a planet-circling electrical grid and can provide vast amounts of seasonal storage capacity (actually, multi-decade storage capacity), thus negating the need for grid-level storage on Mars (or actually, the grid would literally be its own storage mechanism!).

But all this is kind of besides the point: planetary atmospheres tend to do the actual heavy lifting of radiation shielding. Earth's atmosphere is far more important than our magnetic field in lowering the radiation dose on the Earth's surface. And while in absence of a magnetic field the atmosphere is slowly stripped, that process takes hundreds of millions of years.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#119
Ok, so one thing I've noticed reading the 120 comments in this thread and the article is that literally nobody knows anything about boring, or tunnels. Musk knows nothing, he put someone in charge who knows nothing, the reporter knows nothing, and the commenters here even admit they are completely guessing and know nothing about boring/tunnels. I definitely don't know anything about tunnels.

It's a joke that came to life, and it's a pretty funny one, and I'm fairly confident Musk can make improvements, but I'd still like to know something about the whole process.

I assume someone here knows something about this, or at least can find out, so here's my wishlist:

- Has there been any improvement in boring in the last 50 years? The frequently-repeated statement that it hasn't improved would be quite shocking to me since at the very least I'd expect safety to improve.

- What are the maintenance costs of tunnels like as compared to surface roads?

- What are the big costs in the industry? The article hinted that Musk picked up a boring machine for 90% off $15MM, or $1.5MM, which seems extremely cheap given that even small size tunnels in urban areas can cost more than one -billion- US dollars per mile.

- Is there enough boreable space under our cities that this is doable? I know Musk says he wants to go deep, but even at very deep depths you run into problems of sand, boulders, geography, etc, etc.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#120

I generally find Elon Musk to be an offputting individual, but I struggle to disagree with most of his ideas. In dense urban areas, skyrocketing property costs and the erosion of eminent domain have made mass transit expansion unsustainable in terms of time and money. Tunneling under it all has the potential to sidestep so many costs. To do so, of course, he'll need to reduce the costs of tunnel boring by an order of…

Talking about underground transport, Musk, and potentially truck driver industry metamorphosis... I had this vision of underground transport network, but not for people, just for things.

It would have extremely simple, rail like or stupidly easy to Computer Vision track the lanes for big wagons of stuff.

It would make streets for human mobility 80% with occasional trucks and we could have automated Network of Things (NoT (c) agumonkey) below ground, at lower cost:

- less or no wind

- less or no rain

- simple flow => lower congestion

- no human => higher speed

- avoiding property negociations most of the time

etc etc

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