Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported • Hacker News Board

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#111

Post by fit2rule » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 9:06 AM UTC

starik36 wrote: post #81

andrei_says_ wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The older I get the more interesting and sensible Chomsky gets. Until a few years ago I was perceiving him as boring and monotone and now I am seeing a fierce warrior of truth* holding language as his weapon. This 9 min. excerpt on propaganda terms in the Media is especially appropriate. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vmoXze-Higc *I don't mean some objective truth out there but a viewpoint which is rooted in his very…

I have gone the opposite direction on him. I think the turning point was the debate with Dershowitz on Israeli/Arab problems. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ux4JU_sbB0 He seems to speak in broad generalities, rather than getting down into the details. I've reached a point where I need to hear the down and gritty rather than airy statements.

You simply need to listen to more Chomsky. That debate may not have had enough details - such is the nature of the format of the debate - but if one investigates Chomsky further, it is clear that the man lived his life in the details. His position, I believe, is formulated precisely on understanding the details and facts of the situation - it has been his life work to uncover the truth.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#112

Post by ionised » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 9:07 AM UTC

starik36 wrote: post #75

csallen wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. People don't know the half of it, and in my experience, they don't want to know. It's comforting to feel like the good guys. The media is complicit, in that it intentionally leaves out relevant facts that might make us look bad. For example, take Iran. In 1953, we overthrew their democratically-e…

I am not sure what your point is in bringing Iran, maybe its to blame the US for the current situation there. Keep in mind that 1953 was over 60 years ago. To keep on blaming US for acts committed that long ago and apply to today...well, it's ridiculous.

Cause and effect. 60 years is not a long time.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#113

Post by avar » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 9:09 AM UTC

wz1000 wrote: post #95

avar wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a thought experiment you can use to clarify the difference between good & evil: What would each side in a conflict do if they had overwhelming power? We have plenty of evidence to see what the US would do. When they defeated Germany & Japan at the end of WWII did they enslave their people? Use their nuclear advantage to conquer new lands and colonize them? No, they rebuilt their economies and tried to ensure t…

Yes, I would prefer a US hegemony over an ISIS hegemony. The comparison itself is ridiculous. But saying that the US has not used its military strength for its own benefit and at the expense of the people of other countries is ridiculous. The US staged a coup in Guatemala at the behest of the United Fruit Company, when the democratically elected Prime Minister of Guatemala wanted to end UFCs exploitative labor practi…

> Yes, I would prefer a US hegemony over an ISIS hegemony. The comparison itself is ridiculous.

Of course the comparison is ridiculous. That's my whole point.

But this is the comparison the grandparent I'm replying to is making. I.e. that the U.S. bombs some countries while being concerned about civilian casualties, and terrorists respond with something like the 9/11 attacks where they're explicitly trying to inflict civilian casualties, and somehow this should make it less clear who the good & evil actors are, as opposed to more clear.

> But saying that the US has not used its military strength for its own benefit and at the expense of the people of other countries is ridiculous.

I'm struggling to see how you can read my comment and conclude that I'm trying to make that point, but needless to say, you're fighting a strawman.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#114

Post by musha68k » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 9:09 AM UTC

bmmayer1 wrote: post #93

avar wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a thought experiment you can use to clarify the difference between good & evil: What would each side in a conflict do if they had overwhelming power? We have plenty of evidence to see what the US would do. When they defeated Germany & Japan at the end of WWII did they enslave their people? Use their nuclear advantage to conquer new lands and colonize them? No, they rebuilt their economies and tried to ensure t…

Right. The record of history is pretty clear that world powers can and have acted within a broad latitude of barbarity towards weaker nations, mostly on the 'barbaric' end of the spectrum. The record of history is also pretty clear that the US is the most docile and harmless of world powers that has ever existed. There's a reason we call it the Pax Americana--the 'overwhelming power' of the US has contributed to the…

I don't see neither FDR nor Reagan in Trump, mostly bitter regression.

So if the "Pax Americana" is failing, what comes next? How can we do better as a species this time?

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#115

Post by fit2rule » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 9:10 AM UTC

js8 wrote: post #101

wz1000 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I would prefer a US hegemony over an ISIS hegemony. The comparison itself is ridiculous. But saying that the US has not used its military strength for its own benefit and at the expense of the people of other countries is ridiculous. The US staged a coup in Guatemala at the behest of the United Fruit Company, when the democratically elected Prime Minister of Guatemala wanted to end UFCs exploitative labor practi…

I see it as different periods, really. The decisions are made by people, and there were different people in power in 1940s United States than in 1980s United States.

The decisions are made by people, following policies that have been in place for decades.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#116

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 9:10 AM UTC

imron wrote: post #108

jcranmer wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> i'm disappointed that i haven't seen a single member of the media or Democratic party establishment talk about Obama's expansion of the drone program. You must not read a lot of media then. Pretty much every source of media I read on a regular basis has commented about the drone assassination program, Obama's expansion of it, the questionable legality of it (particularly as it applies to US citizens), and generally…

Thought experiment - what is worse - a) expanding a drone program and killing thousands (including by the US's own admission 100+ innocent civilians, but probably many more given that the US classes all military aged men in a strike zone as 'combatants' regardless of whether they are actual combatants or not), or b) issuing a temporary visa ban to a large number of those countries actively being bombed by the above-m…

[deleted]

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#117

Post by ionised » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 9:12 AM UTC

bmmayer1 wrote: post #93

avar wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a thought experiment you can use to clarify the difference between good & evil: What would each side in a conflict do if they had overwhelming power? We have plenty of evidence to see what the US would do. When they defeated Germany & Japan at the end of WWII did they enslave their people? Use their nuclear advantage to conquer new lands and colonize them? No, they rebuilt their economies and tried to ensure t…

Right. The record of history is pretty clear that world powers can and have acted within a broad latitude of barbarity towards weaker nations, mostly on the 'barbaric' end of the spectrum. The record of history is also pretty clear that the US is the most docile and harmless of world powers that has ever existed. There's a reason we call it the Pax Americana--the 'overwhelming power' of the US has contributed to the…

I really hope you're trolling with this.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#118

Post by ionised » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 9:13 AM UTC

pqs wrote: post #103

educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

However, there is objective evil. ISIS is objective evil, for example. Russia or the USA are in the gray zone, where some of they actions are evil, some others are simply stupid, and some other have sense. So, I understand your point, everything is complex, but we should avoid losing our moral compass. Some evil is really evil. Edited: typos.

Define objective evil

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#119

Post by ionised » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 9:15 AM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #67

dcposch wrote: post #11

i'm disappointed that hardly any members of the media or Democratic party establishment talk about Obama's expansion of the drone program. we have a long list of names. the executive branch of our government curates the list unilaterally and in secret. then, we cross names off the list by killing them. sometimes, they're American citizens. often, they're in countries we're at peace or even allied with. there are chil…

> there are children in Yemen right now who are afraid of blue skies. drones fly high enough to be invisible to the naked eye; most strikes are carried out in clear weather. Some adults get PTSD just from being in a car accident. Growing up in this environment must thoroughly destroy a child's sanity. I wonder what the the US drone campaign is teaching an entire generation now approaching adulthood.

To hate the US, thus sustaining the never-ending cycle of 'terrorists' > war > profit that keeps the US military industrial complex ticking along.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#120

Post by arethuza » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 9:15 AM UTC

wz1000 wrote: post #106

bmmayer1 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. The record of history is pretty clear that world powers can and have acted within a broad latitude of barbarity towards weaker nations, mostly on the 'barbaric' end of the spectrum. The record of history is also pretty clear that the US is the most docile and harmless of world powers that has ever existed. There's a reason we call it the Pax Americana--the 'overwhelming power' of the US has contributed to the…

With regards to domestic policy, the US was miles better than the USSR. With regards to foreign policy, the distinction isnt anywhere near that clear. The US has supported mass murders in Guatemala, Iran, Nicaragua, Pakistan/Bangladesh, Indonesia, Laos, Cambodia, Iraq since WW2 and I'm sure I'm missing a few. The nuclear arms race was also hardly one sided, and Kennedy in particular has a terrible record when it came…

"Kennedy in particular has a terrible record when it came to the imminent nuclear destruction of the world"

To be fair to Kennedy - I think he pretty much prevented a war during the Cuban Missile Crisis. A weaker president might have gone with the recommendations to invade Cuba and that would probably have turned out rather badly for all concerned (particularly the Cubans and Soviets).