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I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

blog.codinghorror.com

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Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#111

Post by imgabe »

rdtsc wrote: post #88
noelwelsh wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine you're a person who was strongly against "[b]ombing predominately Muslim countries, overthrowing governments[,] and covert black sites where Muslims get tortured". Now imagine that the US has just elected a president far more conservative (and volatile!) than his predecessor, and a result there is a widespread movement for progressive political change, in line with your beliefs, from people who are normally n…

Why does it have to be a and b only. Why not both or add c and d to the list. He brought a valid point it seems but it was "bitching and moaning". And gave him a binary choice to pick between.

What is the outcome of accepting that point? "You didn't complain when the government did worse things, so now you can't complain ever about anything?" The implication of accepting that logic would seem to be that we just give up. How does that help?

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#112

Post by rdtsc »

ionised wrote: post #45
MisterWebz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet people seemed to be awfully calm when Obama was droning weddings. I'm not saying we should've put so much hate towards Obama as well, I'm saying we should put things into perspective.

You were listening to wrong people.

Which people should we listen to?

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#113

Post by [deleted] »

redsummer wrote: post #71
rtpg wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- It was a ban of people from 7 muslim-dominated countries - It excepts non-Muslims (religious test) - It includes dual-citizens, and permanent residents. Even when you become the citizen of another country, you're still tainted according to the EO. Even when you've been vetted for the green card, you're still tainted. - Guiliani is on the record that Trump said "I want a Muslim ban" and this was drafted to be the "m…

I can't find any mention of Islam, Muslims, Christians etc in the order: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/27/donald-trump... And are you suggesting it's wrong to prioritise religious minorities who are being murdered? Would you, during WW2, say no to Jews, because it would be a 'religious test'?

[deleted]

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#114

Post by jhbadger »

nicolas_t wrote: post #64

While I agree with most everything Jeff says and it's really well written, I'm always a bit irked when I see the the president of the US being called "Leader of the Free World". Especially when it's stated in those terms: "We lead the free world. And we do it by taking the higher moral ground, doing what is right before doing what is expedient." I'm not sure the US can still qualify as leading the free world under th…

The "free world" is pretty meaningless since the Cold War ended. It never really meant "free" anyway -- Pinochet's and Franco's regimes were as much a part of it as Western democracies. What it really meant was the "anti-Soviet world".

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#115

Post by birken »

redsummer wrote: post #101
birken wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the EA: > "the Secretary of State, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, is further directed to make changes, to the extent permitted by law, to prioritize refugee claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution, provided that the religion of the individual is a minority religion in the individual’s country of nationality " In all of these 7 countries the majority religi…

Are you suggesting it's wrong to prioritise religious minorities who are being murdered? Would you, during WW2, say no to Jews, because it would be a 'religious test'? What would be worse, having a religious test or being driven to extinction?

What evidence do you have that people of minority religions are being persecuted any more than people of the majority religions? In a country like Syria that is ~90% Muslim, what are the odds that all of the most persecuted people are in the 10% religious minority?

Why even flag them based on religion anyways if you are trying to help people who are being persecuted or murdered? What difference does it make?

During WW2, nobody should have been saying yes or no to Jews solely because they were Jews. It was because the were as a people being persecuted and murdered solely because of their religion that they should have been helped.

And again context is important here. The ban is coming from a person who has stated Muslims should be banned from entering the US because "there is great hatred towards Americans by large segments of the Muslim population" and "it is obvious to anybody the hatred [of Americans by Muslims] is beyond comprehension". To ascribe motives to the ban that are counter to what the author of the ban has said again and again seems very dubious.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#117

Post by andrewstuart »

Addressing the concerns of the Trump supporters is the only way forward. Why are they angry?

Silicon Valley - one of the richest sectors of society, is up in arms because the disenfranchised "have nots" are expressing their anger about being "have nots" by just tearing the whole damn thing down. The "have nots" say - through Trump and his actions - "OK, you got everything, we got nothing, here's the payback".

The have nots are angry and simply want to smash everything. The process is only just starting.

The ONLY solution is to bring the "have nots" back to being "haves". When you fight Trump, you simply fight the "have nots". You cannot fight them, you must take away Trumps support base by winning them over, not opposing them.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#118

Post by pfooti »

redsummer wrote: post #71
rtpg wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- It was a ban of people from 7 muslim-dominated countries - It excepts non-Muslims (religious test) - It includes dual-citizens, and permanent residents. Even when you become the citizen of another country, you're still tainted according to the EO. Even when you've been vetted for the green card, you're still tainted. - Guiliani is on the record that Trump said "I want a Muslim ban" and this was drafted to be the "m…

I can't find any mention of Islam, Muslims, Christians etc in the order: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/27/donald-trump... And are you suggesting it's wrong to prioritise religious minorities who are being murdered? Would you, during WW2, say no to Jews, because it would be a 'religious test'?

The Christian exemption in the EO is evidence the EO is using a religious test to exclude Muslims. Accepting refugees who are persecuted due to religion is quite different.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#119

Post by sheepmullet »

birken wrote: post #82
ominous wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It excepts non-Muslims Can I get a source on that? I just want to read about it, not doubting you.

From the EA: > "the Secretary of State, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, is further directed to make changes, to the extent permitted by law, to prioritize refugee claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution, provided that the religion of the individual is a minority religion in the individual’s country of nationality " In all of these 7 countries the majority religi…

1. They are prioritising persecuted minorities

and

2. Most of the worlds Muslims aren't in a banned country.

Stop trying to mislead.

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