Live data from Hacker News

Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

scientificamerican.com

111–120 of 140 posts

Re: Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

#111
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but just "feeling good" for helping others could be viewed as selfish as well. But at that point it's just semantics. I think we need to call altruism altruism for the actions, regardless of your return net effects. Is charity not altruism because you happen to benefit from it 50 years later in societal growth?

Wrote my post before I saw this one. This is in line with what I was thinking, an act of altruism to make yourself feel good is not pure altruism. I also agree that it is about the actions more than what you gain by doing so. Charity is a good example of how altruism helps yourself, I donate to charity every now and then and of course it makes me feel good about donating, thus the act has an emotional gain for me.

I actually struggle with this idea myself. I consider myself a good person, and I enjoy helping others. Sometimes with a fair bit of cost to myself.

But I don't consider it "altruistic". I help them because I want to help them and enjoy having done so, and not out of some innate sense of ethics or of what needs to be done.

I think people doing altruistic things do enjoy them, but they don't do them because they enjoy them. They do them because they need to be done, and the enjoyment is a side effect.

Of course, this distinction makes it incredibly difficult to know if someone is actually being altruistic or not.

Re: Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

#112
post #32

When I was working on evolutionary dynamics in the late 90s, a group of us from across the world were trying to build an evolutionary model that showed the emergence of altruistic behaviour. It was really really difficult. Even knowing exactly the kind of behaviour we wanted to show, it wasn't trivial to stack the dice enough to roll that outcome. I have since read a lot of arguments, a lot of post-hoc reasoning that…

> It was really really difficult.

I think that this was easier explained in "The Selfish Gene". Individual altruism is an emergent characteristic of a selfish gene.

I risk my live 10 times to save others until I die without off-spring. It is altruistic for me, but the gene has saved 10 people that are probably related to me. That means that the gene has a probability over 10% to be in that other individuals it is a win for the gene.

From my point of view it sucks, I don't have offspring. But the gene survives and prospers. This is still more extreme in species like bumblebees where sisters share 75% of their genes.

For monozygotic twins there is a similar case. From the gene perspective is irrelevant if one survives or the other, even that it is really important for the individuals.

Re: Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

#113

In modern society, this is so obvious that it seems not worth writing about. Most successful people I know are kind and considerate while people I have known who are not so successful in life tend to not consider other people. OK, I am making a generalization, but one that is usually true.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. "Rich people tend to be happier, more carefree and donate more money. Therefore they are rich because of those characteristics."

Consider that people are mostly not in charge of how "successful" they become (I'm assuming this is more financial success than self actualized success), and are trying their best to react to whatever hand life dealt them.

You said it: you are generalizing based solely on your own experience.

Re: Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if it counts for alturism, but wasn't cooperation-by-default famously shown the best strategy by the tit-for-tat program in the early 80'ies? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_for_tat

Yes, it is the most effective strategy in the Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma, which seems to most closely match social interactions. Better strategies were recently found, but they are highly convoluted and involve knowing your opponents strategy and manipulating it into doing what you want.

Do you have a reference for the more complicated strategies?

Re: Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

#115
post #112
post #32

When I was working on evolutionary dynamics in the late 90s, a group of us from across the world were trying to build an evolutionary model that showed the emergence of altruistic behaviour. It was really really difficult. Even knowing exactly the kind of behaviour we wanted to show, it wasn't trivial to stack the dice enough to roll that outcome. I have since read a lot of arguments, a lot of post-hoc reasoning that…

> It was really really difficult. I think that this was easier explained in "The Selfish Gene". Individual altruism is an emergent characteristic of a selfish gene. I risk my live 10 times to save others until I die without off-spring. It is altruistic for me, but the gene has saved 10 people that are probably related to me. That means that the gene has a probability over 10% to be in that other individuals it is a w…

I can think of a few more reasons beyond rescue.

- It's easier to find a significant other with whom to produce offspring if you exhibit kindness and charity to others.

- Generosity is often reciprocated.

- Giving implies EQ so altruistic person also likely takes care of family.

That's the issue with statistical models with finite decisions and states, they don't include enough parameters and interactions to capture anything relating to real life.

Like imagine a prehistoric human feeds a weak stranger, later that month the stranger warns them of danger. It's so obvious how kindness could be beneficial gene.

Re: Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there are doubts about some of the models, e.g. evolutionary game theory is not a model of evolution. My problem with these kinds of evolutionary arguments is different, though. It seems to me that their interpreters often assume that identifying some behavior as evolutionary advantageous to an individual or group is somehow correlated with the goodness or desirability of that behavior. That's a fallacy.…

> Moreover, there seem to be countless examples of behavior that we are perfectly capable of and whose effect is difficult if not impossible to explain with evolutionary arguments. Even if we acknowledge that some of those examples can't be explained by evolution, evolution permits aberrations. It's in the very core of the model.

It's also worth noting that nearly all of these examples are extremely rare. Homosexuality is the most common one, and as current research suggests a genetic component it seems likely that with further information it will ultimately make sense, if not as an adaptive trait, at least as a consequence of adaptive traits.

The others are indeed examples of memes overpowering genes, and an evolutionary model (of memes) can help to explain them as well. It's not a well-developed field to be sure, but it's a worthwhile perspective. A cartoony example is religions that ban sex vs religions that ban contraception - given that religious memes are strongly conserved in offspring, which meme would you expect to spread better? How does that compare to what we actually see?

Re: Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

#118
post #32

When I was working on evolutionary dynamics in the late 90s, a group of us from across the world were trying to build an evolutionary model that showed the emergence of altruistic behaviour. It was really really difficult. Even knowing exactly the kind of behaviour we wanted to show, it wasn't trivial to stack the dice enough to roll that outcome. I have since read a lot of arguments, a lot of post-hoc reasoning that…

Altruism generates a sense of community. The most successful among us learn to generate an appearance of altruism while keeping the majority of the resources for themselves.

It's really more about deception than anything else.

Re: Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

#120
In summary, I dismiss the article as flawed (false and overly simplistic). No matter how noble (kind) your society, if the next society practices savagery and you are not prepared, your society will fail.

The level at which you pitch the concept of kindness is essential, as is the environment. To illustrate, many comments in this thread fail to hold for an example like the Mongols, or may argue that the Mongols wiping out civilisations was altruistic or kind. In a simplistic way, the Mongols survived through cooperation (as their society had some cruel rules that were definitely not kind), cruelty to outsiders and through theft. However, you could also contrast Chinggis Khan with Darius I of Persia who demonstrated far more kindness throughout his reign than Chinggis did. Both leaders in their own way were quite successful.

If you consider individuals, the dynamics can be quite different from those of nations, depending on the environment. If you limit the view to modern, first world societies, cooperation with ones peers is still essential and almost certainly more important than kindness. To illustrate, if I give everyone around me all of my money, that could be considered kind (think of a lottery winner). However, ultimately, such kindness (no matter how misguided) will usually lead to little or no benefit for the individual. Even if you compare two similarly cooperative people, the most competent cooperator will usually out perform a kinder cooperator. It will depend on the society as to whether an individual's empathy for those in need will add to the success of the individual and/or the community. For example, where a society has social welfare, an individual can point to the welfare system rather than directly contributing to the welfare of those in need.

Family dynamics are yet another level of complexity. Does a priority of kindness go to the family or the local community? What constitutes success of the family? Families that cooperate are more likely to succeed beyond those that are purely kind to each other. However, family cohesion is almost certainly dependent on both kindness and cooperation.

There are also work place environments, community group environments, local community environments, state and territory and country environments. In order to be successful, these environments require competency and cooperation. Kindness may or may not be required.

Regarding kindness. In my observations of modern society (collectively), I observe that there are some examples that complicate concepts such as kindness. For example feminism* insists that domestic violence is something that only happens to females (through ignorance of statistics or for less savoury reasons). Ultimately, what this demonstrates is that kindness can be selectively applied and still be recognised as acceptable.

In summary, I don't see kindness as essential (at least not in all circumstances). Kindness can be selective (eg. Feminism's human rights failures with respect to domestic violence by representing only one gender) and, yet, such kindness can be seen as socially acceptable. Kindness can also be handed off to community and government groups in some circumstances. However, unlike kindness, cooperation is essential for individuals and groups.

* to be clear, feminism can not and should not be interchangeably used with female. Not all feminists are female and not all females are feminist. I think of feminism more like the KKK. Not all white people support the KKK and a criticism of the KKK is not a criticism of white people collectively.

Post reply on HN