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An Ode to Linux Desktop Users Everywhere

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111–120 of 135 posts

Re: An Ode to Linux Desktop Users Everywhere

#111

> Because they ship your bug fixes. Sadly they often don't. Especially on the desktop most open source developers seem to be doing the work for free and it's totally understandable that they prefer playing around with new features rather than fixing bugs.

Sorry maybe I said this wrong.

A lot of developers that I know run Linux on the desktop. They don't necessary ship bug fixes for desktop linux but they write code for Google, Facebook, Some other Startup, etc.. "shipping bug fixes" may not have gotten that point across but my point is "Hackers make the Software that we all enjoy".

Re: An Ode to Linux Desktop Users Everywhere

#112
post #57

Linux as a desktop has come a long way. Most things Just Work now. I actually enjoy the experience a great deal more than either Windows or Mac at this point, and I'm no Masochist. Windows, Mac... plug a device in, install the driver through some lame wizard. Linux... plug the device in, it Just Works. Windows, Mac... software is out of date, go through dozens different wizards and CLI tools to update all your stuff.…

> Most things Just Work now.

I would definitely agree this is true compared to "before". I remember fooling with Linux in the late 90s and getting graphics to work at a native resolution to my monitor and sound was a big accomplishment. In comparison to now, where out of the box on my slightly aged thinkpad I could use my touchstick, touchpad (with two finger scroll!), volume/brightness/media keys, etc.

However, I think the goal "just works" is not necessarily the right one, at least not for Linux. It "just works" is kind of like a two way street, the computer won't throw you any curve balls as long as you don't throw it any curve balls, either. Toying with Linux on the desktop for the last few months, I've seen a lot of "it just works" type solutions which become a complete disaster when things break -- and things _always_ break -- because figuring out how it works, what went wrong, and how to fix it is not intuitive. Trying out KDE Neon, I had my screen just go black on login. Booting into the terminal and clearing the cache fixed it, but then later it happened again. I don't like the culture of copy-and-paste witchcraft, if something breaks, I want to know why it broke, and what steps I can take to deal with it.

Trying to make things automatic often means making things complex -- you have to include the baggage to cover every possibility and the logic to identify what's happening. Making things easy often means making things inflexible -- you remove what's not necessary from the main use case. Instead, I'd like to see a focus on goals like simple, direct, and transparent, so it's attainable for someone to observe and learn to understand how their system works and to work with it to accomplish their goals.

Re: An Ode to Linux Desktop Users Everywhere

#113
post #57

Linux as a desktop has come a long way. Most things Just Work now. I actually enjoy the experience a great deal more than either Windows or Mac at this point, and I'm no Masochist. Windows, Mac... plug a device in, install the driver through some lame wizard. Linux... plug the device in, it Just Works. Windows, Mac... software is out of date, go through dozens different wizards and CLI tools to update all your stuff.…

It's been a couple years, but it used to be my hobby (after a Linux user told me their Linux laptop "just worked") to reach over and hit the mute button on their keyboard, which rarely worked. Not sure if that trick is still effective. But the Linux definition of "everything works" is a little different than the Mac or Windows definition. It's more like, "everything a CLI-using geeky developer cares about works."

[deleted]

Re: An Ode to Linux Desktop Users Everywhere

#114
post #57

Linux as a desktop has come a long way. Most things Just Work now. I actually enjoy the experience a great deal more than either Windows or Mac at this point, and I'm no Masochist. Windows, Mac... plug a device in, install the driver through some lame wizard. Linux... plug the device in, it Just Works. Windows, Mac... software is out of date, go through dozens different wizards and CLI tools to update all your stuff.…

I disagree, at least for laptops. Desktops are mostly fine with Linux. Laptops... even certified ones, they suck. While battery life is decent, sleep and hibernate support has random issues, and external monitor support is awful. Try using a 4k external monitor when your internal display is not 4k, or viceversa. When the external monitor gets recognized at all (and its relative position is not forgotten).

Re: An Ode to Linux Desktop Users Everywhere

#115
post #57

Linux as a desktop has come a long way. Most things Just Work now. I actually enjoy the experience a great deal more than either Windows or Mac at this point, and I'm no Masochist. Windows, Mac... plug a device in, install the driver through some lame wizard. Linux... plug the device in, it Just Works. Windows, Mac... software is out of date, go through dozens different wizards and CLI tools to update all your stuff.…

> Most things Just Work now. I would definitely agree this is true compared to "before". I remember fooling with Linux in the late 90s and getting graphics to work at a native resolution to my monitor and sound was a big accomplishment. In comparison to now, where out of the box on my slightly aged thinkpad I could use my touchstick, touchpad (with two finger scroll!), volume/brightness/media keys, etc. However, I th…

I believe the problem is that you can either get something that works, or you get something that is very open to tweaking. Systems that are very open to tweaking and changing things around just don't work as smoothly and easily as systems that "just work". And I think that's the reason why so many people are put off using desktops that aren't Windows or macOS.

My computer is a tool, which I happen to use to develop software and do some schoolwork on. I didn't get my computer for the sake of examining how the operating system works or for the sake of changing around things in config files and changing my DE, I got it for the sake of actually using it as a tool to do other things.

So I got this laptop and installed Fedora on it, almost a year ago now. Not once has anything in the OS spontaneously broken, even after two OS upgrades, never have I been forced to go into config files and muck around, no tweaking necessary, using this computer is a breeze. I've never been happier using a computer, because at last I'm using a setup which is stable, never breaks on its own, and which I also know is safe, FOSS, and not full of NSA backdoors or whatever.

Re: An Ode to Linux Desktop Users Everywhere

#116
post #99
post #57

Linux as a desktop has come a long way. Most things Just Work now. I actually enjoy the experience a great deal more than either Windows or Mac at this point, and I'm no Masochist. Windows, Mac... plug a device in, install the driver through some lame wizard. Linux... plug the device in, it Just Works. Windows, Mac... software is out of date, go through dozens different wizards and CLI tools to update all your stuff.…

Most things on osx/macOS "Just Work". I still use Linux, and have been a linux desktop user for 15 (ish) years, and to this day I still don't even have any hopes of installing any distribution and having one of the following not being an issue: - Multiple monitors - Printers / cups - Suspend / hibernate - Mounting USB sticks / drives. - Breaking my system during an upgrade (I've mostly had this issue in deb/rpm syste…

I use Fedora, basically as it comes out of the box, with only a couple of Gnome shell extensions to make it nicer. My computer is a ThinkPad X230.

- I've never tried external monitors, so I can't say anything either way about that one.

- Printers/CUPS: always worked flawlessly (except for one single HP printer that just wouldn't). Autodiscovered network printers, USB printers, network printers have all "just worked" without an issue. I don't print that much though.

- Suspend/hibernate: I always suspend my laptop when I don't use it. That has worked flawlessly every time without any power management issues, sleep/wakeup issues or anything to complain about. I haven't tried hibernating though.

- Mounting USB sticks/drives: Never had a single issue relating to this. Every single time has worked flawlessly, exactly the same way: plug in USB, open it in the file manager, do things, eject, unplug USB. With both FAT32, NTFS and ext4 file systems, on USB drives, external hard drives, and SD cards.

- I've done two OS upgrades on this (Fedora 23 -> 24 -> 25) the normal upgrade way. Not a single thing broke in either of the upgrades. Both times the upgrade went literally like: start the OS upgrade, reboot to install upgrade, reboot after upgrade is finished, continue using computer without any problems. (By the way, Fedora 24 was the one that made Wayland good for use as daily driver for me, and 25 was where they made it the default.)

I realize that my comment is the definition of anecdotal evidence, and I understand that there are laptops with less fortunate hardware (Nvidia, some WiFi cards, some CPUs, etc.). But what I've realized during this year is that if they have a laptop with good hardware, then the common computer user can just install Fedora on their computer and get the same experience that I had, and that means Fedora is indeed in a very good place among the various desktop operating systems on offer today.

Re: An Ode to Linux Desktop Users Everywhere

#117
post #69

> How else can you stare at an empty screen and know that you have to blacklist your video card driver? Or sit in silence while tweaking alsamixer on the command line? Or write bash aliases to reload your network driver kernel module each time your laptop resumes from suspension? The good old days! I've been a desktop Linux user for going on a decade. Yes, it used to be a mess. Something only someone with technical a…

I regularly have to $sudo systemctl restart NetworkManager.service after suspend on Ubuntu LTS :(.

Hey,

You can make a oneshot systemd unit that's WantedBy=suspend.target that just restarts it for you.

It should look something like this(didn't test because I'm not on my laptop right now):

    [Unit]
    Description=Restart NetworkManager after resume from suspend.
    After=suspend.target

    [Service]
    Type=oneshot
    ExecStart=/usr/bin/systemctl restart NetworkManager.service

    [Install]
    WantedBy=suspend.target

Re: An Ode to Linux Desktop Users Everywhere

#118

I'm so glad this one reached the top page in HN. It's our chance to talk about it. I've been using Linux on my personal and professional desktops since 2006. I really enjoyed when Ubuntu got its presence and relevance in the scene, and I didn't mind when they decided to adopt Unity. KDE has always been my preferred option until I read an article where Linus T. said he used Gnome. So by the time I moved to Gnome I als…

I don't know what problems UEFI has caused (you didn't mention any actual problems?). I have Fedora on two computers with UEFI firmware, and it runs flawlessly on both of them. Installing produced no difficulty at all: the installer automatically installed the bootloader and set it up perfectly on both of the machines.

I even disabled the CSM (legacy BIOS compatibility) on my machines because I want to embrace EFI booting, since I feel like it's such an immense improvement over the old BIOS days. Now the bootloader just goes in a file on a partition, no need to ever do anything with the Master Boot Record anymore.

Re: An Ode to Linux Desktop Users Everywhere

#119
post #88
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the things you consider broken?

The last thing that happened before I gave up (around 2010) was purchasing a laptop with entirely open source drivers (ie, low end hardware I wouldn't have otherwise purchased), and compositing still didn't work on an external monitor. You'll probably say that's fixed now. I'm sure it is. I'm also sure it's been replaced by something else - I recall someone on HN saying one of Dell Linux laptops (ie, which are actual…

I reckon the Dell laptop you're referring to is the old XPS 'Developer Edition'. I used one at work and it was ok, didn't have any driver issues from memory, but they no longer sell them to the public with Ubuntu. It was the same as a regular XPS but with Ubuntu 14.04 pre-installed.

I don't believe they offer Ubuntu as an option with the current generation of XPS's, it dropped off the list of supported OS's. It's a shame really because it was nice to have a premium laptop, with Linux, and with on-site manufacturer support.

Re: An Ode to Linux Desktop Users Everywhere

#120
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last thing that happened before I gave up (around 2010) was purchasing a laptop with entirely open source drivers (ie, low end hardware I wouldn't have otherwise purchased), and compositing still didn't work on an external monitor. You'll probably say that's fixed now. I'm sure it is. I'm also sure it's been replaced by something else - I recall someone on HN saying one of Dell Linux laptops (ie, which are actual…

I reckon the Dell laptop you're referring to is the old XPS 'Developer Edition'. I used one at work and it was ok, didn't have any driver issues from memory, but they no longer sell them to the public with Ubuntu. It was the same as a regular XPS but with Ubuntu 14.04 pre-installed. I don't believe they offer Ubuntu as an option with the current generation of XPS's, it dropped off the list of supported OS's. It's a s…

What I recall was someone on HN saying the 11 inch Ubuntu model wasn't actually that Ubuntu compatible and to buy the 13 inch instead. But I can't remember was the specific HW was.
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