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Silicon Valley Has an Empathy Vacuum

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Re: Silicon Valley Has an Empathy Vacuum

#111

Post by apozem »

hash-set wrote: post #81
amelius wrote: post #19

> However, when you are a data-driven oligarchy like Facebook, Google, Amazon, or Uber, you can’t really wash your hands of the impact of your algorithms and your ability to shape popular sentiment in our society. We are not just talking about the ability to influence voters with fake news. If you are Amazon, you have to acknowledge that you are slowly corroding the retail sector, which employs many people in this co…

Is Amazon really corroding the retail sector or is brick and mortar largely just obsolete?

Both. Amazon corrodes the power of brick and mortar by obsoleting it. Why go to a store limited by shelf space when you can shop at one with essentially infinite inventory?

Re: Silicon Valley Has an Empathy Vacuum

#112

Post by dragonwriter »

teilo wrote: post #109
pmoriarty wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why were they patronized and treated like children again? Oh, perhaps it was because they claimed Obama wasn't born in the US. Or because they denied global warming. Or because they hate Mexicans and Muslims. In short, because they bought in to the steaming pile of bullshit that is the right wing media echo chamber. When they think like children, talk like children, and act like children, they shouldn't be surpri…

What you fail to comprehend is that your contemptuous attitude is the very thing that isn't working anymore. In fact, the more you crank up the rhetoric, the more you will be ignored. If this election has taught us anything, it is that if we continually scream at and belittle adults, they will eventually ignore us. Every epithet, every word of shame-speak will then fall on deaf ears. We will find ourselves in the ver…

> If this election has taught us anything, it is that if you continually scream at and belittle adults, they will eventually ignore you.

I thought it was, "if you nominate a candidate against whom a successfull multidecade smear campaign has been run, turnout among the people that are otherwise likely to vote for your party will be dangerously depressed."

Trump was supported by a smaller share of the voting public than the losing candidate in the last Presidential election (about equal to the 2008 loser, and smaller than the losers in 2000 and 2004, as well) -- with less of the eligible population voting at all than in 2012.

> Why was the birther and the racial element so prominent during the Obama years?

The racial element has been a factor in pretty much every US election ever; heck, the stark divisions over racial policy underlies some of the most notorious provisions of the original constitution. It's the single most consistent and enduring political divide in the US. It wold only be noteworthy if it hadn't bee particularly prominent with a black candidate or incumbent in the Presidency.

Re: Silicon Valley Has an Empathy Vacuum

#113

Post by mercer »

fmatthew5876 wrote: post #92
lambdasquirrel wrote: post #8

I'm just going to cut right through this from the start. Unlike most of my tech friends, I actually have tried to reconnect outside our privileged circles (and if you don't think that's what they are, you're kidding yourself). And you know what I found? A lot of echoes of the personal past. Lets face it. A lot of techies — engineers specifically — are who they are because they were socially rejected in younger years.…

So what if you got socially rejected in younger years? That's no excuse for anything and it's time to grow up. Social skills are just that.. a skill. Skills can be acquired through training and practice. I know because I went through all of this personally. A lot of nerds never try because they are too scared of other people and have low self esteem. Social value is an illusion, one you can craft if you know how. The…

> I know because I went through all of this personally.

Apologies for a bit of a rant. It's not targeted at you specifically, but the above statement prompted it.

I'd just like to say that some of the most un-empathic people I know use such statements as an excuse to judge others rather than understand them (let alone empathize).

I've met more than once person who worked themselves up from poverty and because they could, everyone can and should, and those who don't are clearly just not trying hard enough.

The same goes for quite a few people who grew up with shitty parents, mental health issues, religion, and so on.

Now to some degree I get that; plenty of people are just excited about their solution to their problem and just mistakenly believe that if only others would do as they did, they'd be happier. In my church-going years we called these people 'recent converts'.

But quite often there's more than just a little condescension to it, and I really, really dislike that.

I've been privileged in many ways, and I try to be aware of that. But I've also had it hard in many ways, and the most hurtful and unproductive comments were of the 'just do , it worked for me' or even the usually-only-implied "you're just not trying hard enough" variety.

These kinds of statements were particularly painful if the person who said them actually had experienced similar problems, because it would give their words more weight, more legitimacy, and it would make my problem something to feel ashamed about because clearly I'm just not trying hard enough; surely they would know.

The thing is, even if it's true, it doesn't help other than make those who make these statements feel good about themselves.

I just wanted to say that. I do agree with the gist of you comment. Learning social skills has been extremely beneficial to me, and much of that didn't come naturally! And I wish there was a class for that for those who somehow haven't learned these things, because that sucks.

Re: Silicon Valley Has an Empathy Vacuum

#114

Post by Spooky23 »

doubleunplussed wrote: post #3

It's not a private company's job to have empathy for the people affected by progress. Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of empathy. But petitioning private companies to change their ways will get you exactly nowhere unless it comes with a corresponding profit motive. It's the government's job to redistribute wealth and income to the needy, and provide safety nets and retraining opportunities for people whose industri…

Private companies consist of people. This message board isn't populated by companies.

The difference between the army of geeks powering silicon valley and other industries is that the SV people don't realize that they are cogs in the wheel. The optimism and hope of the late 90s is gone.

The "magic" is at an inflection point and is tipping towards becoming a menace. When SV gets "disrupted" in 10 years, either by an earthquake or some group of rich plutocrats somewhere else, the popular reaction is probably going to be a big "fuck you".

Re: Silicon Valley Has an Empathy Vacuum

#115

Post by garysieling »

misiti3780 wrote: post #39

“Productivity is at record levels, innovation has never been faster, and yet at the same time, we have a falling median income and we have fewer jobs. People are falling behind because technology is advancing so fast and our skills and organizations aren’t keeping up.” It is, he said, “the great paradox of our era.” While I believe this is true, and understand why it is a problem, I do not think there is anything tha…

I think there are probably a few things that can be done. For instance, the quality of internet in the rural area where my parents are is pretty bad.

Re: Silicon Valley Has an Empathy Vacuum

#116

Post by mercer »

noir-york wrote: post #7

On one hand you have increasing immigration increasing the supply of labour. On the other hand, you have increasing automation reducing the demand for labour. And in the pinched middle you have falling wages. This cannot end well. I don't know which is the most dangerous scenario: the working classes taking it out on immigrants, or the working classes making common cause with immigrant labour against a Victorian econ…

Very good point. The big question I'm also asking myself is which of the two scenarios is worse. In case of the former, the conflict would probably happen sooner and be more localized, which might mean an earlier 'solution' and/or less violence. But the latter scenario would probably have more chance of success, given that it involves more bodies to fight this revolution.

Neither sounds pleasant, and I'd like to think there are still other options. Any thoughts?

(As an aside: I've become a bit depressed by the fact that so much of the post-election and post-brexit talk is about 'who to blame' or 'what went wrong' rather than about what we can do to move forward. It feels so pointless and ineffective.)

Re: Silicon Valley Has an Empathy Vacuum

#117

Post by mercer »

tansey wrote: post #64
ckoglmeier wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^ Example A. An alternative way to approach this, which the author of the article could also consider, is how might we, as technologists, build companies that help solve this problem? For example, our country will have 3.5 M truckers (the most common profession in the US and in 46 of the 50 US States) out of jobs within 10 years due to automated trucking. Option A: We cheer at the success of the automated trucking in…

Educate them to do... what, exactly? What could Uber do with two million mostly-uneducated truck drivers that are scattered all through out the country? Most do not want to move, do not have the patience/desire/grit to go through long retraining periods for a vastly different job, and are currently making something in the neighborhood of $55K/yr. How could any company possibly be expected to help that large a workfor…

Agreed. This strikes me as the kind of thing that requires a government solution. Perhaps it means we should get our hands dirty (but not in that way!) and enter politics. As nice as it would be to solve problems doing what I am already good at and what I already like to do, sometimes a hammer isn't enough...

Re: Silicon Valley Has an Empathy Vacuum

#118

Post by pmoriarty »

teilo wrote: post #109
pmoriarty wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why were they patronized and treated like children again? Oh, perhaps it was because they claimed Obama wasn't born in the US. Or because they denied global warming. Or because they hate Mexicans and Muslims. In short, because they bought in to the steaming pile of bullshit that is the right wing media echo chamber. When they think like children, talk like children, and act like children, they shouldn't be surpri…

What you fail to comprehend is that your contemptuous attitude is the very thing that isn't working anymore. In fact, the more you crank up the rhetoric, the more you will be ignored. If this election has taught us anything, it is that if we continually scream at and belittle adults, they will eventually ignore us. Every epithet, every word of shame-speak will then fall on deaf ears. We will find ourselves in the ver…

"What you fail to comprehend is that your contemptuous attitude is the very thing that isn't working anymore."

You must be kidding me. What do you think Trump himself was doing? He is the epitome of an obnoxious screaming asshole, and he won! His approach clearly works.

It's a pity that the Democrats didn't have an anti-Trump on their side. Maybe he could have been the kryptonite that cost Trump the election. As it was, the old polite, wet rag politics that Clinton represented was defeated. (That's not to say that I'd want an anti-Trump as President either, or that I like screaming assholess, as long as they're on the left, but a more confrontational, "tell it like it is" style is clearly what gets media attention and is attractive to a lot of voters.)

In the future, the left needs to be more outspoken and confrontational towards the right, not more compromising and conciliatory as Obama has been, because the latter only leads towards moving the party further to the right.

Instead, the Democrats need to further differentiate themselves from the Republicans, and move further to the left. Otherwise they're going to keep being seen as Republican-lite, and few are going to get excited enough to vote for them (rather merely than voting against an even worse Republican option).

Sadly, given how the Democrats have behaved in the past, it's more likely that as a response to losing to Trump, the Democrats are just going to move even further to the right, in an effort to capture the "independent" vote (who were right-wing enough to vote for Trump this time around) instead of trying to win over the many more people who didn't even bother to vote because they were disillusioned with both the Republicans and Democrats.

Re: Silicon Valley Has an Empathy Vacuum

#119

Post by mercer »

misiti3780 wrote: post #96
douche wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the things I think we forget about here, where most of us are smarter than the average bear, is that there are a lot of people that aren't so smart. If you have an 80 IQ, you might be able to learn how to code, but it's going to be really hard and you're never going to be as good as somebody with more mental resources to start with. My mother works as a special ed teacher - her main concern is trying to get he…

I agree in spirit, but I think most people are capable of obtaining an STEM degree (you're being too pessimistic). You just have to work a bit harder than say you work for an art history degree (and you certainly come out of college less well-rounded, which is also a huge problem). There are always going to be good jobs that don't require college degrees. Plumbers can make $100K a year if they're good and work hard.…

You're very optimistic. I suspect there are tons of people who can not get through law school or get an art history degree!

I've spent quite a chunk of my life around people who are somewhere on the lower half of the intelligence curve. I grew up in poor neighborhoods, and attended a pentecostal church for much of my life (which at least over here contains the full spectrum of 'classes', but skews working class).

Lots of these people just cannot handle the level of abstraction (or whatever the thing is they need) to obtain even the easiest of college degrees.

On the other hand, I also learned that 'smart' is a very multi-dimensional thing and from their perspective 'academic me' is a complete idiot in so many ways. I'm just saying that the particular skills needed for (most of?) college are skills that a lot of people don't have.

Re: Silicon Valley Has an Empathy Vacuum

#120

Post by mercer »

robbrown451 wrote: post #93
talideon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see how the things he discusses have to do with empathy in Silicon Valley. Driverless trucks, for instance, have nothing to do with empathy and a lot to do with simple economics. Someone is going to build them if they can make a buck doing it, and empathy isn't going to somehow stop that. But whether or not you consider what happens to the people who used to drive those trucks and what they, their families,…

Ok, tell me what good it is going to do to consider those things. Are you suggesting that if we all collectively decide that building such things hurts people, no one will build them? And that such an idea is remotely realistic?

Another option would be to commit to setting aside some of the profits for a fund of some kind to address the externalities in whichever way seems most effective at reducing the negative effects. I'm not saying I expect a company to do this, but why can it not be considered an option?
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