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22 years in, Magic: The Gathering is the brainiest it’s ever been (2015)

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Re: 22 years in, Magic: The Gathering is the brainiest it’s ever been (2015)

#111
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ex-Power Artifact, Ex-Academy, Ex-Oath-Combo, Ex-Enchantress and Active Legacy Splinter Twin combo player here. I really don't see how actually interacting with your opponent is less "brainy" than comboing out. Building a combo deck to win turn 1 reliably is not as difficult as actually interacting with your opponent and forcing them into submission. To win with a good combo, just assemble the deck with dollars and l…

I do somewhat agree with you from a playing standpoint. I often gravitated to combo or control because I didn't want to deal with doing the math on attacking / blocking as it could lead to some awfully complicated interactions. But there were definitely difficult decisions to be made when playing combo or control, since you'd often be facing aggressive decks that put you on a clock. But mainly, I found the deck build…

From a metagame and game balance perspective Control and combo are totally different, unless they are mingled in the same deck.

In a typical Academy deck (pure combo) you just built a 56 card combo deck and slammed in 4 force of wills for protection. A game will another is only slightly harder to win than a game against a goldfish. If the metagame decisions around your control go beyond "How do I defeat the one thing that stops me" you probably weren't playing an optimal version of that deck. Academy decks should be winning before turn 3 100% of the time.

Someone mentioned Prosbloom, I was under the impression it won 3 or 4 with a city of solitude in play. Pretty much the only question you need to ask about that metagame is "How do deal with someone stopping my turn 2 squandered resources?". Versions dealt with that with copious use of 4x enlightened tutor and 4x vampiric tutor, not a real metagame choice.

In Illusions/Donate (combo/control) you build and play a blue/white control deck with a win condition that sometimes saves you the hassle of having to interact. You are still playing a two player game with removal and sometimes even creatures, but your wins come in fast from nowhere. There were several ways to interfere because the win could come well after control was seized or sometimes just before the aggro player attempts to win.

Try pulling off anything of that consistency when you cannot run duplicates of your combos and need to run 100 cards. This is what EDH looks like. Actual thought on deck design because you can't easily build a well oiled machine from cookie cutter parts. When running it feels like trying to win a race while building the racecar from secondhand parts. There is immense challenge and complex decisions.

The combo decks look totally different and barring an extreme outliers (Arcum Dagson and Narset) it is nearly impossible to build a deck that wins consistently without actual board interaction.

Re: 22 years in, Magic: The Gathering is the brainiest it’s ever been (2015)

#112
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I play EDH/commander. There a $50 budget deck can readily beat a $2000 deck. I have won and lost on both sides of that equation. EDH started as a community driven format with no official support. The community decided that your deck must be exactly 100 cards with no duplicates except basic land. This slows the came down and forces more board interaction. On top of that 1 of your hundred cards must be a Legendary crea…

In so far as there's a "right answer" for the pay-to-win parts of the game, this is it. EDH, in general, is much gentler on using cards that aren't the best and most expensive thing around. I have a tourney-competitive EDH deck that, according to current prices, costs about $400. That's a good bit... but replacing 4 cards with cheaper counterparts brings it down to $63. And I have recently seen at 2 other good EDH de…

So mister Dauthi, playing some mono black shadow?

Re: 22 years in, Magic: The Gathering is the brainiest it’s ever been (2015)

#113
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you be more specific ? While teaching my children to play m:tg I had the same impression as you describe, but I wasn't exactly sure what aspects I was missing ...

MaRo started a "New World Order" ( http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/ne... ) design approach in 2011, where they try to manage some of the complexity by making commons and uncommons have less and/or easier abilities. It sound reasonable, as casual players have a lot more commons and uncommons than rares and mythical rares, and it makes learning/enjoyment curve much less steep. Some experienced…

I mean, that sounds infuriating to me, because it means to get complex effects you have to go and buy rares and shinies on the secondary market. I guess that was always the downside to playing a CCG rather than a straightforward tabletop RPG, though.

Re: 22 years in, Magic: The Gathering is the brainiest it’s ever been (2015)

#114
post #22

I appreciate the article is trying to get people to check out MTG, but it's just inaccurate. http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiver... is vastly more meta, and complicated to the point where it is outright banned from the game for being a waste of time in all practical sense. And that card was printed in 1993.

Doesn't having that card in your library nearly guarantee an infinite descend into madness?

If you're playing the card, then it is no longer in your library. (Remember, your library is your undrawn stack of cards.)

Re: 22 years in, Magic: The Gathering is the brainiest it’s ever been (2015)

#115
post #42

This is nowhere near the brainiest Magic has ever been. I've been playing almost since the beginning and it's been disappointing to see how the game has been simplified. It seems like all competitive standard decks now are creature decks, which is a shame because control and combo decks used to be a huge part of the meta game and required a lot of skill to pilot. I think Wizards deliberately eliminated combo and cont…

Are there any other games that are "Brainier" than Magic?

Contract Bridge is a lot of fun, but definitely not as popular in the US as it used to be.

Re: 22 years in, Magic: The Gathering is the brainiest it’s ever been (2015)

#116
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My biggest problem from a couple years back was just one kid who's parents dropped like $600 on his deck and just played to be smug about his 30 damage turn 3 on friday nights. I've always loved trying to make competitive decks with as little money as possible though, maybe it's just me being silly.

From what I heard, it costs a lot of money to purchase a competitive Magic deck, but the cards tend to hold their value so you can just sell them once you're done playing it. Compare to, say, Hearthstone, where the digital cards have zero resale value, but the up front cost is substantially lower.

What I typically do when a new set comes out is to buy 3 to 4 "boxes" of the set (around 100 booster packs). Over the next couple of months I'll draft the set with friends or we will do casual sealed tournaments etc. (You need 24 boosters for an 8 man draft or 6 booster per person to run a sealed tournament.). There is a group of us who get together every fortnight or so to play limited like this - usually over a few beers.

By the time I've opened all the product I generally have copies of most of the set's staple rares and I can trade or sell anything I do not need.

It is a sizeable chunk of cash upfront if you specifically want to play constructed you can acquire 'singles' in pieces and build towards a deck over the season that way. I do not play standard at all. I'm a big eternal format fan (especially Legacy). Once you acquire those cards you can play with them forever.

One thing I have noticed is a lot of eternal format cards are getting thrown into supplemental sets (i.e True Name Nemesis, Shardless Agent, Council's Judgement, Containment Priest, Dack Fayden) stuff like that. Which tends to spike the price.

Re: 22 years in, Magic: The Gathering is the brainiest it’s ever been (2015)

#117
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I've played MtG three times in my life: back in 1997, in 2004, and in 2016. I'm currently in a sealed league at work, and we're finding that Kaladesh is pretty rich with organic complexity. In my experience, it requires a lot more mental effort than I remember using a decade ago, and the people I'm playing with have expressed similar sentiments. The set seems to be particularly sensitive to issues like ti…

My biggest problem from a couple years back was just one kid who's parents dropped like $600 on his deck and just played to be smug about his 30 damage turn 3 on friday nights. I've always loved trying to make competitive decks with as little money as possible though, maybe it's just me being silly.

Competitive Magic has a financial barrier to entry, yes, and always has. In that sense it's no different from any other hobby (and is cheaper than quite a few).

Also it's generally a very bad idea to try to build your own decks from scratch if you want to be competitive. Although things shift far more often (due to new sets and rotating formats), competitive Magic is similar to chess in that you're better off studying and mastering known-good decks, since very few people can reliably outperform the ruthlessly honed decks produced by the worldwide competitive community.

Re: 22 years in, Magic: The Gathering is the brainiest it’s ever been (2015)

#118

"The brainiest it's ever been" makes it sound like it's ramping up the intellect. I guess they're saying that because of the end of the "dumbed-down" core sets, but I doubt it's the case for the game as a whole. I tried getting back into Magic after an 8-year hiatus, and so many of the rules had been changed and simplified that many of the subtleties I enjoyed from before were no longer options. Felt like I was payin…

I've been playing magic competitively for a while now, and I have to say I agree that the recent sets after the so-called "new world order" are much more dumbed down. But you should play legacy or vintage (with proxies) just to see how crazy complex the game remains. Legacy remains extremely healthy and robust in my opinion, and has continued to tease my brain more than any other game.

Re: 22 years in, Magic: The Gathering is the brainiest it’s ever been (2015)

#119
post #51

"The brainiest it's ever been" makes it sound like it's ramping up the intellect. I guess they're saying that because of the end of the "dumbed-down" core sets, but I doubt it's the case for the game as a whole. I tried getting back into Magic after an 8-year hiatus, and so many of the rules had been changed and simplified that many of the subtleties I enjoyed from before were no longer options. Felt like I was payin…

I remember playing the game in the late 90s, and trying again in the early 2000's. The strategy and game-play dynamics were awesome. Not so awesome: the fact that the amount of money a player spends acquiring rarer cards and assembling a deck dictates their success. It's a pay-to-win game and I fucking hate games like that. Not unlike paintball, he who spends the most on gear wins.

It's a pay-to-win game

Except that it's not.

If you and I played a round of golf, where I used a standard set of golf clubs (not cheap) and you used a hand-whittled tree branch, it's highly likely that I would beat you regardless of our relative skill level. This does not mean golf is "pay-to-win", though; if you and I both played with the standard clubs, skill would determine the outcome. And even if you played with an average but acceptable set of clubs while I splurged on super-fancy clubs, you'd still beat me reliably if you were the more skilled player.

Magic is much the same way. There is certainly a financial barrier to entry, which must be cleared if you want to succeed in competitive play. And if you pit someone who has cleared that barrier against someone who has not, skill is much reduced as a factor in determining the outcome. But competitive Magic is like everyone having at least a basic decent set of golf clubs: everyone playing competitively has made the up-front investment in the game, and now they are distinguished by skill rather than further spending.

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