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In Greece, Property Is Debt

nytimes.com

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Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#111

Post by pmlnr »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #83
flexie wrote: post #74

Let's get facts straight: The state property tax in Greece is 0% for property up to €200K. Then 0.2 to 1% from €200K to €5M. Then 2% above €2M. Property taxes are hardly killing the Greek economy and especially not for the poor or the middle class. On the contrary, Greeks are paying very little. The problem is that Greeks used to have much more property than for example Northern Europeans. For comparison, in Denmark…

Most of Europe at this point has no or almost no property tax.

It's not named as property tax, sometimes not even named a tax, but it's there for most countries.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#112

Post by yagodragon »

SocratesV wrote: post #102
yagodragon wrote: post #68

I live in Greece and things are bad but as a matter of fact, the real problem is that we ,the Millennials, feel that we're screwed because we compare ourself with our parents. Our parents and our politicians really scammed the whole europe into believing that we have a strong economy but the truth is that everyone avoided paying taxes, they got huge loans that could never pay of and our politicians where really corru…

Went to Crete a few years ago and was surprised by the number of (what seemed residential) buildings with unfinished roof/terrace, but otherwise being used and perfectly normal. You could see the concrete pillars with the steel bars coming out on top. Imagine it is some kind of way to dodge taxation since it is still considered unfinished? Have also read Michael Lewis' "Boomerang", which also has a lot of similar ane…

Unfinished buildings isn't a way to dodge taxation . You can see a lot of them in the whole country because people don't actually have the money to finish them and even if they had ,they wouldn't spend a dime to something so undervalued like real estate is in Greece.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#113

Post by Spooky23 »

liotier wrote: post #78
saiya-jin wrote: post #66

> "And yet, the leftist government recently proposed adding further documents and costs to selling or renting property — a compulsory “energy performance” certificate and a civil engineer’s assurance that there are no illegal constructions." Not an expert, nor a citizen/resident, but these seem like a basic things to do. Parents back home had to provide same things recently just for renovation, and much more. There a…

Energy performance certificate, non-toxicity certificate, surface certificate, non-pledge certificate... The basics of a real estate sale in France - they make the transaction more transparent and I'm glad they are mandatory, both as a former buyer and a former seller... They remove a lot of the friction that distrust creates. Framing it as "red tape" that “threaten to turn the country into an endless ‘property grave…

That statement is a little dramatic, but these sorts of things have severe impact.

Upstate NY is a great example -- property taxes are oppressive, and while property does sell, the value is kneecapped because the tax costs are so high. In my city, a house in a nice area valued at $200k (which is a 3-4 BR, 1-2 BA house) is taxed around $6000-6500. So a typical homebuyer who needs a mortgage automatically loses around $550/mo in buying power. In a suburban area, those taxes are $4500-5000, which boosts the value.

At the macro level, it's more insidious. With multifamily property, there's little incentive to maintain property, so the business model in urban areas is to suck as much value out of the property as possible, stop paying the taxes and let the county sell it at auction. The lower tier of scum landlord buys these properties, restores them to minimum code compliance and rents them to subsidized tenants.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#114

Post by charlesdm »

cgio wrote: post #80
flexie wrote: post #74

Let's get facts straight: The state property tax in Greece is 0% for property up to €200K. Then 0.2 to 1% from €200K to €5M. Then 2% above €2M. Property taxes are hardly killing the Greek economy and especially not for the poor or the middle class. On the contrary, Greeks are paying very little. The problem is that Greeks used to have much more property than for example Northern Europeans. For comparison, in Denmark…

Let's get facts straight. The state property tax in Greece is calculated on a nominal value far removed from market value. This means that a 300K nominal value property cannot sell today for 150K (I know, I have tried.) In practice, as the article mentions property value approaches zero as the market is incredibly shallow. Recalculate on the basis of that and then make the comparison.

Sounds like a bargain. Why shouldn't I pick up a property in Athens, right now? Are you talking about prime property locations in Athens?

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#115

Post by dan1234 »

dozzie wrote: post #94
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of Europe at this point has no or almost no property tax.

Wikipedia disagrees on "has no property tax", and it's hard to tell anything about "has almost no property tax". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax#United_Kingdom

The UK also has a Stamp Duty tax when property is purchased.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamp_duty_in_the_United_Kingd...

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#116

Post by dualogy »

simosx wrote: post #35

Some examples of inheritance would be either old houses at the village or small olive groves. Many old houses at the village are derelict and the small olive groves have little financial value. The olive groves are generally small because they have been divided among the children through the generations. If an olive grove is not tended for 5-10 years, it becomes unusable and costly to fix.

> Many old houses at the village are derelict

Ooh, damn, that might require some time investment and manual labour! What is this, the 20th century? Dump this rotten crap!

> If an olive grove is not tended for 5-10 years, it becomes unusable and costly to fix.

Ooh, damn, that might require some time investment and manual labour! What is this, the 20th century? Get outta town.. ;D

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#117

Post by guitarbill »

cgio wrote: post #80
flexie wrote: post #74

Let's get facts straight: The state property tax in Greece is 0% for property up to €200K. Then 0.2 to 1% from €200K to €5M. Then 2% above €2M. Property taxes are hardly killing the Greek economy and especially not for the poor or the middle class. On the contrary, Greeks are paying very little. The problem is that Greeks used to have much more property than for example Northern Europeans. For comparison, in Denmark…

Let's get facts straight. The state property tax in Greece is calculated on a nominal value far removed from market value. This means that a 300K nominal value property cannot sell today for 150K (I know, I have tried.) In practice, as the article mentions property value approaches zero as the market is incredibly shallow. Recalculate on the basis of that and then make the comparison.

Who determines this "nominal value"? Sounds like a great business opportunity if it's far removed from market value...

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#118

Post by dozzie »

dan1234 wrote: post #115
dozzie wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia disagrees on "has no property tax", and it's hard to tell anything about "has almost no property tax". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax#United_Kingdom

The UK also has a Stamp Duty tax when property is purchased. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamp_duty_in_the_United_Kingd...

Which is a tax on selling the property, not on merely owning it, and I believe it's the latter we're talking about here.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#119

Post by return0 »

flexie wrote: post #74

Let's get facts straight: The state property tax in Greece is 0% for property up to €200K. Then 0.2 to 1% from €200K to €5M. Then 2% above €2M. Property taxes are hardly killing the Greek economy and especially not for the poor or the middle class. On the contrary, Greeks are paying very little. The problem is that Greeks used to have much more property than for example Northern Europeans. For comparison, in Denmark…

You're not wrong. Greece experienced a property bubble that is bursting painfully slowly. Homeownership is high in greece; it's part of the culture and successive governments protected it despite its heavy cost as a populist measure (e.g. by instituting laws that disallowed foreclosures). The bubble has not yet burst completely, that's why rent prices are very cheap.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#120

Post by charlesdm »

simosx wrote: post #17

Apart from inheritance, the parents can also set up a form of "parental donation" of their property to their children, but continue to make full use of the property (live on the property or keep all the rent) as long as they are alive. And the difference between "inheritance" and "parental donation", is that the latter was set up decades ago when it was cheap to do so. What you are reading in this article is cases wh…

What you are describing is Usufruct: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usufruct
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