How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016 • Hacker News Board

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#111

Post by glenjamin » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 2:15 PM UTC

kraftman wrote: post #71

marrs wrote: post #65

In my experience, the developers who fall into this trap of despair almost always do so because they aren't consciously choosing what tools to use; instead they are letting the tools choose them. They see job descriptions demanding AngularJS or ReactJS and they think that they must learn it, or someone posts an article here and they don't want to feel left behind. Choose a library or tool because it improves your dev…

So what do you do about jobs asking for Angular/React experience? Just tell them you have none because you haven't needed to use them yet? Or avoid those jobs? (There are a lot)

I've hired multiple people onto team using React when they have no prior React experience.

The learning curve for React is pretty smooth, so I'd mostly check if they had experience of building the types of apps we were doing with other approaches - and whether they'd seen any ill effects from those choices.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#112

Post by chris_wot » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 2:16 PM UTC

talmand wrote: post #97

enraged_camel wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, what people frown upon is using tables for layout. Using them to display actual tabular data is quite fine. (I mean, everything is fine at the end of the day as long as the end-user is happy, but you know what I mean...)

No, you don't understand. I don't want to use tables for layout, I want to use tables to display a good old-fashioned table. A table displayed in an otherwise normally marked up page. That is what's getting the pushback. I guess I could say I want to use table elements to layout a table, which would trigger the "don't use tables for layout" argument.

So... ignore them? If you want to use a table for tabular data, then please - use a table!

If someone whines you've used a table, then ignore their whining and keep using table markup for tabular data.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#113

Post by ofcapl_ » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 2:16 PM UTC

TamDenholm wrote: post #6

I'm a web dev, been doing this 11 years. But i totally feel past it, granted i code less and less nowadays so i havent kept up with new technologies. I've hired people that are much better at web dev than me and let them accomplish a task with pretty much whatever tech they want to use, because i believe you shouldn't constrict a developer if you dont have to. Even for a simple app that it'd take me 20 - 30 hours for…

I'm soo 100% like You.

I've found my own stack of choice - requirejs+jade(pug)+npm scripts(to parse requirejs and ES6 with babel) just do my job - no matter if it is a front-end or mobile one.

I've also add to it Express.js if want to build something full-stack - no front-end frameworks, just jade(pug) and own way of files organization etc. Sometimes I have worse day and think that I'm behind new hyped stuff but then I realise that my way just works without any fancy setup..

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#114

Post by ofcapl_ » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 2:17 PM UTC

ofcapl_ wrote: post #113

TamDenholm wrote: post #6

I'm a web dev, been doing this 11 years. But i totally feel past it, granted i code less and less nowadays so i havent kept up with new technologies. I've hired people that are much better at web dev than me and let them accomplish a task with pretty much whatever tech they want to use, because i believe you shouldn't constrict a developer if you dont have to. Even for a simple app that it'd take me 20 - 30 hours for…

I'm soo 100% like You. I've found my own stack of choice - requirejs+jade(pug)+npm scripts(to parse requirejs and ES6 with babel) just do my job - no matter if it is a front-end or mobile one. I've also add to it Express.js if want to build something full-stack - no front-end frameworks, just jade(pug) and own way of files organization etc. Sometimes I have worse day and think that I'm behind new hyped stuff but then…

in addition, I've took a look on react/ember/angular etc. but it just doesn't fit me - but at the same time I've took some principles from every of them and use it in my projects (e.g. code modularity)

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#115

Post by lloyd-christmas » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 2:19 PM UTC

hemancuso wrote: post #83

marrs wrote: post #65

In my experience, the developers who fall into this trap of despair almost always do so because they aren't consciously choosing what tools to use; instead they are letting the tools choose them. They see job descriptions demanding AngularJS or ReactJS and they think that they must learn it, or someone posts an article here and they don't want to feel left behind. Choose a library or tool because it improves your dev…

How would you suggest developers actually figure out what tools to use? It is next to impossible to make an informed decision without digesting a good portion of what the OP is talking about. You need to start somewhere.

"I want to study oncology" - On the biological side? Go learn biology. On the ML research side? Go learn basic python syntax before trying to train a neural network.

I usually see 3 categories:

- I want to learn Web Development.

- I want to learn Web Development, but in all actuality I'm going to quit in 3 days.

- I want to learn Web Development, but in all actuality I just want something working with no effort.

None of these need an informed decision. The latter 2 don't matter anyway, and the first one is better off starting with a vanilla ajax request[0], and they likely know it. When it comes down to it, "I'm going to make an app today" means your decision likely doesn't have long-term consequences and an informed decision isn't all that important. Pick up jquery like the other 80% of the living internet[1].

[0] https://webdesign.tutsplus.com/tutorials/an-example-of-ajax-...

[1] http://trends.builtwith.com/javascript/jQuery

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#116

Post by shados » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 2:19 PM UTC

People writing these kind of articles are really not looking at their current stack objectively.

If I'm doing backend, I have to pick from various languages, I often will still need build tools (often more complicated) for various reason), you need to spin up a server (or make an AWS account....maybe use S3, maybe not!), you still have dependency management, etc etc.

Remember when Maven picked up, the bitchfests that surrounded it?

And debugging a server side app in production by picking at memory dumps, profilers, etc? Its not exactly easy.

The difference is that those problems are understood, and everyone knows the barrier for entry is higher.

The web platform used to feel like it had a low barrier for entry because it was so limited and there was only so much you could do. Those barriers were removed, so now its just as hard as anything else, except its not quite as understood (the barriers were removed recently). So all of the peanut gallery goes in thinking they can change the world in JavaScript, then realize they actually need to learn to engineer.

A good example of that problem is all of the big companies and startups hiring "full stack" engineers, which is code name for "pure backend engineer who has 10+ years of experience doing backend...and has heard of HTML".

Of course, that kind of people won't go far.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#117

Post by snlacks » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 2:20 PM UTC

mathgeek wrote: post #101

cloverich wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where the OP falls off is with stuff like "OMG don't use jQuery" or "no one uses HTML anymore". There's nothing wrong with using those -- and frankly using plain old javascript and HTML is fine. Remember we reached for jQuery in the first place because the browser lacked features we wanted, and because it handled cross browser stuff for us. That is, it simplified things we were already doing manually . So the trap is…

I've been to more than one interview where I defaulted to jQuery and was immediately disqualified, based on the looks on the interviewers' faces. As a ruby developer, it certainly feels like keeping up-to-date on JS takes more work than the other 90% of languages that I'm familiar with.

Yeah, it's true, but I've also been in interviews where I told them I was using a tool that I think they thought was too hipster and ended up just being ahead of the curve (Babel or TypeScript, don't remember which one, both were just picking up popularity) while still being looked down on because of jQuery.

These interviews usually end and then when I look up the company 3 months later they don't exist anymore or have pivoted.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#118

Post by rpeden » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 2:21 PM UTC

Scarblac wrote: post #7

The worst is, if you don't keep up with this, good luck getting a web job five years from now, you'll be the equivalent of a Cobol programmer. Can't get off the train.

HN (and perhaps SV) might be a bit of an echo chamber that doesn't reflect industry overall.

In most decently sized cities, there seem to be plenty of development jobs available that make heavy use of solid software engineering and architecture using reliable, proven technology.

It's only anecdotal, but I know plenty of developers working for banks, manufacturers, and government who enjoy their jobs and get to solve problems that are interesting and challenging from both business and technical perspectives. They're not using outdated technology, either. The perception here sometimes seems to be that Java and .NET are slow moving dinosaurs, but they're both evolving, and organizations that from the outside seem stuffy and boring actually aren't afraid to keep up with the changes.

Interestingly, the devs I know at these companies also seem to enjoy a much higher status among their non-dev coworkers than devs at many startups and software product companies. I'm not sure why it has worked out this way, but it seems that in businesses where software isn't the end product, it's often easier for developers to be seen as trusted solvers of business problems rather than assembly line workers who are just stitching together raw materials to reify someone else's visions and ideas.

Before I digress too much, I'll circle back around to my point: it's still very possible to ignore the current front end development circus and enjoy a good career as a developer without the risk of turning yourself into an out of date dinosaur.

I'm also not implying that the worldview on HN is wrong, or that startups are bad, or that the current JS ecosystem is the worst thing ever. I'm just trying to remind everyone that there's a pretty big world out there where development skills are in demand, and a huge portion of that work doesn't involve front end work at all! It's even better if you're a developer who understands business (or is willing to learn). If you're a developer at a non-tech company, your ability to quickly create software that solve business problems can make you seem like a magician.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#119

Post by sAuronas » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 2:22 PM UTC

Kequc wrote: post #40

I feel like knowing which tools are useful, which ones are currently dominating, and which ones are going to continue being supported in the future is the best place to start learning JavaScript. This is difficult because the ecosystem is so wildly fragmented and insane. You'll get a lot of different opinions if you go searching for them, so here are mine. ES2015 is the place to start, it is a finished stable release…

This is a very good reply. Someone trying to grab a foothold in front end development should keep it simple and add tools as they require them (if applicable). I used to develop for the web until I found iOS development to be more enjoyable because of the feeling of stability of the SDK. When I did do it, I got to the point where I said, fuck all this noise and just give me Nodejs/npm, MongoDB and raw JavaScript...

Right or wrong it felt like enough at the time. Just adding Angular felt dirty. Damn, I feel for you guys.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#120

Post by erelde » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 2:22 PM UTC

lucb1e wrote: post #54

scottmf wrote: post #51

Funny, but it's not quite that complex. How about "Here's a link to a CLI utility or git repo which will give you a working project in 2-3 hours"? I took a break from web dev for some years and had barely used any JS frameworks besides jQuery, until June, when I began working on an ambitious project and quickly got up to speed with the state of JS. I'm using React/Redux/Sagas/Webpack/etc. for the client, and Express…

> which will give you a working project in 2-3 hours > you can learn React in a few hours. What's the big deal? Assuming we are still using the same example (filling a table with some data and filtering it), I think 2-3 hours is a good example of how long it takes to write that in plain Javascript and testing it on every browser back to IE6 while having lunch in between.

Funny, I actually had that last year in a 2 hours midyear exam, access to Internet authorized. I was the only one to complete the exam and had the best mark, didn't use internet, just my own code lying around my pc, finished in half an hour, vanilla js/php LAMP.

But many of my class couldn't do it.