Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#111

Post by yAnonymous » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 2:04 PM UTC

ComodoHacker wrote: post #69

icantdrive55 wrote: post #10

I would like to see a federal Staute inacted regarding the collection of user data in the US. Enacted quickly! Something on the lines of don't collect any data, besides name, password, email address. This information can never be sold. I have weird feeling, in the near future, we will find that information/data has been abused. No just abused by marketing/big data, etc.. And I'm not even arguing about the obvious--pe…

The funniest part will begin when Google start sharing user data with Facebook and vice versa, for mutual benefit. Perhaps only then regular users will start thinking about privacy.

That's never going to happen. The reason they make so much money is because they're the only ones who have that amount of interconnected user data. Sharing it would be the stupidest thing they could possibly do.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#112

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 2:06 PM UTC

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #106

bpchaps wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does it lead to authoritarianism? You're making some pretty sweeping statements there..

Because there are no personal freedoms that cannot be taken away if negative externalities alone are a sufficient justification. Outright bans are the strictest form of regulation. They should only be used as a last resort. We don't even ban industrial scale cruelty towards animals and now we should ban voluntary trade in personal data? That seems completely out of proportion.

Are you suggesting that externalities alone cannot ever be sufficient justification for a ban, no matter how bad the externalities are?

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#113

Post by bpchaps » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 2:12 PM UTC

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #106

bpchaps wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does it lead to authoritarianism? You're making some pretty sweeping statements there..

Because there are no personal freedoms that cannot be taken away if negative externalities alone are a sufficient justification. Outright bans are the strictest form of regulation. They should only be used as a last resort. We don't even ban industrial scale cruelty towards animals and now we should ban voluntary trade in personal data? That seems completely out of proportion.

Fwiw, I actually agree with much of what you're saying. The contention others seem to be having might just be from perceived absolutism. Funny, since you're actually arguing for the opposite.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#114

Post by corndoge » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 2:17 PM UTC

logn wrote: post #105

0xmohit wrote: post #36

Quoting from the link: Facebook said on Tuesday, after the order had been issued, that it had complied with Europe’s privacy rules and that it was willing to work with the German regulator to address its concerns. Two Indian students challenged Facebook on WhatsApp privacy policy changes [0]. The following is what WhatsApp counsel told [1]: Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision, we have not forced anybo…

> Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision Once a critical mass uses a messaging service, it's not a completely voluntary decision, especially when there is no open standard with interoperable competing apps.

This is false. Market dominance does not transform a proprietary product into a basic utility. What I mean is that simply because a proprietary product has a large mass of users does not mean the users have the right to demand that it be regulated like a public utility.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#115

Post by jerf » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 2:18 PM UTC

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #112

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there are no personal freedoms that cannot be taken away if negative externalities alone are a sufficient justification. Outright bans are the strictest form of regulation. They should only be used as a last resort. We don't even ban industrial scale cruelty towards animals and now we should ban voluntary trade in personal data? That seems completely out of proportion.

Are you suggesting that externalities alone cannot ever be sufficient justification for a ban, no matter how bad the externalities are?

No. "X is not always a sufficient reason" != "X is never a sufficient reason."

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#116

Post by omouse » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 2:20 PM UTC

corndoge wrote: post #114

logn wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision Once a critical mass uses a messaging service, it's not a completely voluntary decision, especially when there is no open standard with interoperable competing apps.

This is false. Market dominance does not transform a proprietary product into a basic utility. What I mean is that simply because a proprietary product has a large mass of users does not mean the users have the right to demand that it be regulated like a public utility.

It can in some cases and in some cases they should be turned into infrastructure. We've done the same with power plants and highways.

And actually yes they do have that right! A corporation is given the privilege to exist by the state, that privilege can also be taken away.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#117

Post by CaptSpify » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 2:21 PM UTC

smoyer wrote: post #7

Now things are going to get interesting! I completely understand the desire for privacy but I think it's unrealistic to expect that Facebook won't consolidate its data by user across all their applications. Facebook (and Google, etc.) are now in the same business as the credit reporting agencies ... You are their only product. My hope is that the increasing outrage will drive users to one of the secure messaging appl…

I got down-voted for saying it last time this was brought up, but:

Sharing data is what these companies do. The only way to keep your data safe is to use open-source, e2e systems.

Even if you trust any company today, there's no reason you can trust said company tomorrow.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#118

Post by rglullis » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 2:22 PM UTC

kaybe wrote: post #98

rglullis wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All that I can say is that if we actually had free markets, one's citizenship wouldn't matter at all. For better or for worse, it would be up to individuals to inform ourselves and seek privacy, security and financial profits as we see fit.

And we'd be up individually against huge conglomerates full of lawyers and psychologists trying to trick us. Without some sort of organization with comparable power on the consumer's side, this is not a very bright proposition. edit: (Bright not as in 'intelligent', but as in 'bright future'.)

> huge conglomerates full of lawyers(...)

I think it is easy to challenge this notion that Corporatism is something that comes to existence due to the absence of regulation bodies and government intervention. If you have solid institutions and a simple code of laws that allows well-intentioned people to work for their self-interest and of their society, we wouldn't have the amount of regulatory capture that we see nowadays.

> some sort of organization with comparable power on the consumer's side.

When Adam Smith was talking about "the invisible hand", it is precisely this kind of organization that is being talked about. All the people need, as a whole, to have "comparable power" is the freedom to choose and access to information.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#119

Post by networth » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 2:23 PM UTC

danarmak wrote: post #75

chii wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Something on the lines of don't collect any data, besides name, password, email address. This information can never be sold. Would you then pay for the services in full that you now could use for free?

I would gladly pay for every single service I use - email, messaging, social networks, various sites - in exchange for no advertising and no user data collection.

sorry for shameless plug: http://minutesworth.launchrock.com

It's a mere launch rock page, but i am gauging interest on the project. I actually have a big portion of ready, and rest under work, but finding people to pick up the idea is tough.

Everybody say they'll pay, but it's different from actually doing.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#120

Post by FabHK » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 2:24 PM UTC

corndoge wrote: post #114

logn wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision Once a critical mass uses a messaging service, it's not a completely voluntary decision, especially when there is no open standard with interoperable competing apps.

This is false. Market dominance does not transform a proprietary product into a basic utility. What I mean is that simply because a proprietary product has a large mass of users does not mean the users have the right to demand that it be regulated like a public utility.

And why not, given that the network effect means that messaging apps are effectively natural monopolies, and even Milton Friedman of the Chicago school allowed for government regulation and intervention in the two cases of 1) externalities and 2) natural monopolies?