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Someone Is Learning How to Take Down the Internet

lawfareblog.com

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Re: Someone Is Learning How to Take Down the Internet

#111

Post by pjc50 »

chmike wrote: post #107

I totally disagree that we can't do anything. With the existing TCP/IP protocol we can't do anything because it's possible to forge the origin IP address or modify the datagram content on its route to destination. A receiving end has no way to verify the validity of the datagram. An IP datagram authentication at the lowest level is required so that anyone on the route can detect forgery, error or tempering with the d…

> top priority change of the Internet

See you in thirty years.

Also, IP authentication doesn't help you. DDOS traffic often has real IP source addresses on. It tells you that the traffic is several hundred thousand home PCs. Now what?

Re: Someone Is Learning How to Take Down the Internet

#112

Post by celticninja »

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #44
kej wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amateur radio community already has the technical know-how and disaster readiness to do most of that, and I'd be willing to bet there's enough overlap between them and the meshnet crowd to take care of the rest.

KG6YHQ here. It's doable, but if the wired net becomes unusable and you have to rely wholly on the RF spectrum, bandwidth would be stupendously tiny. Forget about sending anything else but, basically, text-based messages. Perhaps in an event like that a decision would be made to temporarily open up the spectrum, but even then there are only so many of us, only so many transceivers out there. I feel the HAM net would…

Could the spectrum be opened up "unoficially"? i.e. Is there a "switch"the govt would need to throw or is it more that you cannot use the spectrum for fear of prosecution, so with no govt you could just decide to use the available spectrum?

Re: Someone Is Learning How to Take Down the Internet

#113

Post by qwertyuiop924 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #94
Florin_Andrei wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes it feels as if computer engineers have a unique inability to deal with ambiguous information. Yes, I agree the article is vague, and I'd like to learn more. But this is typical for this kind of backchannel intel. From some sources, through some channels, for some kinds of info - this is all you get. This is business as usual. Take it in for what it's worth. It's a signal from a sea of noise, nothing more. M…

> Just learn to deal with ambiguity; the world at large is quite different from the rigid boolean-logic computer systems you're interacting with on a daily basis. You're shitting me, right? Computer engineers are the last people who think in rigid, boolean-logic ways. It's the general population that does that. If you do any serious thinking in any STEM field, you quickly learn that the world is probabilistic in natu…

Well, as far as ambiguity goes, a CS or CE's job is to fit that round peg into our square hole, with mathematics and neural networking as our hammers.

Re: Someone Is Learning How to Take Down the Internet

#114

Post by pbhjpbhj »

CJefferson wrote: post #101
asclepi wrote: post #16

So how exactly is one entity, even a state entity, going to take down all 13 root servers, assuming that that is what Schneier is talking about since the man speaks in mysteries? What would it take to do that? Let's safely assume that these servers, every single one of them, are subject to DDoS attacks all the time and have at least some experience in handling them, and have a backup scenario ready for a serious atta…

Here's one way: * Find a couple of remote security holes in Windows and Android, maybe iOS and Macs as well (Linux would be good too, as lots of servers run Linux and have big bandwidth). * Write a self-propagating worm which uses your holes to infect a large chunk of machines currently attached to the internet. * Set your worm so, after an hour or so it starts hammering the root servers. That mess would be almost im…

>why would Russia or China or the US want to take down everyone's internet? //

No-one's "internet" would work except for states that had a backup network. In the event of war such a tool would be useful, imagine the panic, chaos.

Another situation could be a major power trying to destabilise another's economy, fiscal warfare?

Re: Someone Is Learning How to Take Down the Internet

#115

Post by gaius »

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #44
kej wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amateur radio community already has the technical know-how and disaster readiness to do most of that, and I'd be willing to bet there's enough overlap between them and the meshnet crowd to take care of the rest.

KG6YHQ here. It's doable, but if the wired net becomes unusable and you have to rely wholly on the RF spectrum, bandwidth would be stupendously tiny. Forget about sending anything else but, basically, text-based messages. Perhaps in an event like that a decision would be made to temporarily open up the spectrum, but even then there are only so many of us, only so many transceivers out there. I feel the HAM net would…

Forget about sending anything else but, basically, text-based messages.

What's the downside?

Re: Someone Is Learning How to Take Down the Internet

#116

Post by mhurron »

gaius wrote: post #115
Florin_Andrei wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

KG6YHQ here. It's doable, but if the wired net becomes unusable and you have to rely wholly on the RF spectrum, bandwidth would be stupendously tiny. Forget about sending anything else but, basically, text-based messages. Perhaps in an event like that a decision would be made to temporarily open up the spectrum, but even then there are only so many of us, only so many transceivers out there. I feel the HAM net would…

Forget about sending anything else but, basically, text-based messages. What's the downside?

No one wants to go back to the age of ascii porn.

Re: Someone Is Learning How to Take Down the Internet

#117

Post by gaius »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #108
vacri wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My $0.02, as a latecomer to this tech industry (really only been in it for 6-8 years) I don't understand the reverance around Schneier. I first saw him give a talk in 2009, and it was an 'insert town name here' speech about stuff that was blazingly obvious to people who should already know (topic: social engineering and passwords). Yet people were fawning over the talk. It really struck me as a guy who was once great…

He wrote a book in the 90's that defined crypto for a lot of people. It was the first time that I know of that this info was all collected, curated and available to the "average reasonably technical developer", without reading a ton of academic papers. In retrospect we've learned a lot since them and no one (including the author) would recommend developers read that book first or even at all. Now we've come to the un…

Also ISTR he had a column in DDJ, I first encountered him via an articld there.

Re: Someone Is Learning How to Take Down the Internet

#118

Post by SixSigma »

linkregister wrote: post #40

Although Schneier is probably correct in this instance, one of the most exasperating features of his computer security writing is an utter lack of citations or evidence to back up his claims. (His writing about cryptography should require no citations because he is an actual crypto expert.) After the significant inaccuracies and frequent unsubstantiated speculation in Schneier on Security , I don't think credible sec…

e.g.

> someone has been probing the defenses of the companies that run critical pieces of the Internet.

...

> China and Russia would be my first guesses.

Re: Someone Is Learning How to Take Down the Internet

#119

Post by SixSigma »

exolymph wrote: post #18
increment_i wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He suspects China or Russia as the likely culprit. What exactly rules out an American agent? Is it because American economic and social activity rely disproportionately on internet backbones more so than other state actors? If so, that would be especially interesting.

It would be profoundly stupid for the American government to take down the internet under normal circumstances, but then against it would be equally stupid for China or Russia to do it (again, under normal circumstances). But developing the capability seems like a good idea of the face of it. That said, Schneier obviously has more information than he's currently sharing.

Taking down the internet and blaming it on China or Russia.

They are already trying to pin the DNC insider leaks on Russia. Clinton is threatening physical war for "cyber attacks".

Face value is worthless.

Re: Someone Is Learning How to Take Down the Internet

#120

Post by mhandley »

pjc50 wrote: post #111
chmike wrote: post #107

I totally disagree that we can't do anything. With the existing TCP/IP protocol we can't do anything because it's possible to forge the origin IP address or modify the datagram content on its route to destination. A receiving end has no way to verify the validity of the datagram. An IP datagram authentication at the lowest level is required so that anyone on the route can detect forgery, error or tempering with the d…

> top priority change of the Internet See you in thirty years. Also, IP authentication doesn't help you. DDOS traffic often has real IP source addresses on. It tells you that the traffic is several hundred thousand home PCs. Now what?

If you knew for sure that an IP src address involved in a DDoS attack was not spoofed, we could easily design a control protocol that allowed a recipient to contact the origin ISP and enable a block on that particular {src,dst} pair. Unless you know for sure that the src address isn't spoofed though, such a mechanism would itself be abused to deny service. Having the ability to validate a source address would be the enabler for proper defense mechanisms.

We wrote about one way to do this about ten years ago, but no-one was really interested at the time: http://www0.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/M.Handley/papers/terminus2007...

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