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Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

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Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#111
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is evident that different societies have different rates of things like social cohesion, trust, violence and about a million other variables. Of course... > There are some societies that have managed to emulate the success of Europeans, such as the Japanese and Chinese, so we know it is possible, that is the good news. Many culturally and technologically sophisticated societies existed in the ancient world outsi…

> Many culturally and technologically sophisticated societies existed in the ancient world outside of Europe.... That is a fact. However something else is also a fact. That growth over the last 3 centuries in almost every area catapulted Europeans to incredible, almost seemingly impossible levels of economic success with respect to previous history. The truth is in the numbers. Look at a graph of economic change over…

[deleted]

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#112
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is evident that different societies have different rates of things like social cohesion, trust, violence and about a million other variables. Of course... > There are some societies that have managed to emulate the success of Europeans, such as the Japanese and Chinese, so we know it is possible, that is the good news. Many culturally and technologically sophisticated societies existed in the ancient world outsi…

> Many culturally and technologically sophisticated societies existed in the ancient world outside of Europe.... That is a fact. However something else is also a fact. That growth over the last 3 centuries in almost every area catapulted Europeans to incredible, almost seemingly impossible levels of economic success with respect to previous history. The truth is in the numbers. Look at a graph of economic change over…

> However something else is also a fact. That growth over the last 3 centuries in almost every area catapulted Europeans to incredible, almost seemingly impossible levels of economic success with respect to previous history.

Have you looked deeper into what fueled this "incredible/impossible" growth you're so proud of? It was the disruption, colonization and then plunder of the resources of other societies around the world, which hit Africa the hardest. The Europeans at the time invented the gun, which gave them lethal military advantage over other cultures that still used spears and swords for warfare. This, coupled with their ruthless drive to amass wealth led to ridiculous situations where an army of just 50 gun totting soldiers could slaughter 1000 warriors in just 30 minutes. And slaughter they did, and after the slaughter came the plunder. Not only their minerals and crops, but their people as well. Many of their healthy, strong young African men and women were sold off into slavery in the middle east, Europe and Americas.

And lets be honest: this plunder and disruption was very easy for them to do, since the Europeans of the time did not really consider Africans human. Maybe the Asians, but definitely not the Africans. Many were treated worse than horses or dogs. Go read up on what king Leopold of Belgium did at the Congo. If you still could not work hard or fast enough after all the whippings, your fingers, the hands and limbs would be chopped off. This is called trauma. Whole generations of African communities were brutalized and traumatized just 100 years ago. If you don't know untreated trauma does to the human psyche, or how it can be passed from generation to generation, go ask your local therapist. And I'm sorry African society doesn't seem to be recovering fast enough for you, maybe they are not just as "strong/civilized" as you are.

> This success has also been incredibly specific geographically, with the Far East only coming up in the last few decades, a delay I attribute to the retardation that was Communism.

Really? What metrics are you using to measure this success? You seem to be using per capita income, which means you don't get simple economics. You're basically saying that someone earning 1000 US dollars in New York is on par with someone earning the same in rural Texas. The United Nations HDI index paints a very different picture, putting Africa more or less at par with Asia, and Europe on top. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Dev....

> Western media constantly harps on positive news from the frontier. > Western media has a very strong bias against negative news about Africa for political reasons.

Hahaha! Don't make me laugh. Whats most likely happening here is the few positive stories you've stumbled upon have just blown your mind and worldview, so you think its happening evrywhere because those are the ones you remember. For every one positive, you'll find another 20 negative from that same western media outlet.

> We have to call a spade a spade. Africa is the most backward place in the world. Most growth that exists is obviously non-organic, relying on extensive networks of foreign > coordination and siloed off resource extraction. This is an entire Continent that has not experienced an agricultural revolution let alone an industrial one. The level of > corruption is hard to comprehend because it is the norm and not the exception.

Once again, whats the metric for measuring the backwardness of a place? If its the western way of life and values, I agree with you 100%. And I don't think it would be a good idea for Africans to wholesomely adopt all those values, just the ones that work. Understand this: in terms of natural and human resources, Africa is the richest most abundant planet on this continent. In terms of consumption of these resources, its people are the last. Why? For the same reason that the CEO of a successful company earns in one day what his/her personal secretary earns in a year. Is it fair? No, but that's just how the world works: wealth brings power, and that power is used to enforce and maintain the status quo. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. As it is for individuals, so is it for nations. The CEO's of African nations are its leaders, and they work with the CEOs global corporations to continue the plunder of the continent. There are thousands of Africans who have enough money to buy you, your mother and the whole street you live in; and live a life of untold luxury and comfort that would put yours to shame, right in the heart of Africa. There partners in corruption and plunder are the leaders of western governments and corporations. The same corporations that own the media, and YOUR 18th century views about Africa, which is why I find your comment about positive western media hilarious. That's just good old fashioned prejudice and ignorance.

Your great grandfather had an excuse for his ignorance, you don't. Go find out where the coffee you drink comes from (hint: its not from a pre-agrigarian revolution society) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_coffee_pr...

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#113
One thing to note about these experiments is that they tend to paper over or ignore both the Universal and the Basic parts of Universal Basic Income. (Those are the hard parts.) They end up just experiments to see what happens if you give some people a little money. In this case, what if 6,000 out of 45,000,000 people get $1 per day (which is about 1/9th the GDP PPP per capita) for a limited time.

I don't know about the cost of living or employment situation in Kenya, but by GDP PPP per capita, that calculates to about the equivalent of $17.42/day in the U.S, or $522/month ($6,264/year). That's way below poverty level, and not likely to cover housing, utilities, food, and healthcare anywhere in the U.S. Of course, that would be helpful to anyone with low income, but it is not a basic income. The situation may be different in Kenya, but by the math it doesn't sound promising.

If it only affects 1/100 of 1% of the population, there is no way to observe the societal effects of a universal income. That's a long way from universal. Also, because it is an experiment rather than a social contract, there is no way to observe what people will do if they have it as a safety net, because they can't rely on it. To be fair, if it is going to run for 10 years, that's something, but still not representative of lifetime security.

---

Regarding the comments about poor people buying TVs and cellphones, etc. - there are many reasons for this, but it really is utility and value. These people aren't stupid. The economy works completely differently when you are poor. Thinking that they should invest their $300 tax refund in a diversified stock portfolio is nonsense. With fees of $10/transaction, they would lose 1/3rd of their money just buying into 10 cheap stocks, and an equivalent amount selling it. They would need > 100% return just to break even.

Likewise, money in the bank is a liability. It detracts from foodstamp allowances etc. But they don't send people around to appraise your TV when they're calculating your foodstamps. And in a pinch, you have things that you can trade, sell, or pawn. If you leave the money in the bank, it will be lost to bills, bank fees, etc. And sure, you could have caviar and shrimp instead of ramen and rice cakes, but it'd be gone as soon as the meal is done. A stereo will still be there tomorrow.

Generally speaking, if you are working poor, trying to save up to improve your position costs you and you lose. Buying things saves you money, maintains the status quo, gets you things which you can sell in an emergency, and makes your life better until then. Consider states of matter - solid, liquid, gas. Things work quite differently depending on the state of matter. Likewise, the economy works quite differently if you are lower class, middle class, or upper class.

Telling someone poor that they should spend their money more wisely is often like telling someone trapped in ice that they should just swim up to the surface. In the latter case, physics just doesn't work that way. In the former case, economics just doesn't work that way.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#114
I'm curious at about how much freedom the Kenyans have after they accept it.If it's an experiment, there will be data collected. Having someone record every purchase you make and giving you constant interviews or more for ten years might be a lot of hassle.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#115

Interesting. I have no desire to dump on UBI -- I want to see how these various experiments pan out -- but I am reminded of a thought experiment. Imagine it's 10,000 years ago. You arrive in pre-history with all of the technology of today: electricity, communication, medicine, automation, and so on. Your mission? To destroy mankind. Assuming infinite resources, how would you go about doing it? Sure, you could build o…

Oh come on, what is this crap? You are talking about people like they're almost subhuman. People more more adaptable than that. Maybe not everyone, but at least some will take any advantage they get and put it to good use, and the rest will follow. "Primitive" people are most likely smarter and harder working than you. Surviving off hunting is not easy - you have to know a lot about the environment you're in. Also, h…

"...You are talking about people like they're almost subhuman...."

Anything but. The fact is, I am not looking at individuals. I am looking at the population. A population is not a human.

You make a good point. When we talk about UBI, the relevant examples should be the independently wealthy. Many have done great things with their lives. Some have destroyed themselves. Some have had positive effects on others, encouraging them to also do better. Some have had negative effects on others, causing despair or disillusionment.

Why the difference?

Beats me. So let's experiment.

On a personal level, we should always be kind and treat people with respect and love. But that doesn't make any of these population questions go away.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#116
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but when people turn to 'magic spells' for many things ... you know there really are some deep issues. All across Europe and North America (especially the US), people regularly turn to magic spells (praying). These are the places that us westerners think of as the primary 'civilised' societies, but 'magic' is commonplace there as well.

There's a difference between relying on prayers for everything and relying on prayers as something extra that can only help.

Oh I love a good delusion. They're so warm and fuzzy.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many culturally and technologically sophisticated societies existed in the ancient world outside of Europe.... That is a fact. However something else is also a fact. That growth over the last 3 centuries in almost every area catapulted Europeans to incredible, almost seemingly impossible levels of economic success with respect to previous history. The truth is in the numbers. Look at a graph of economic change over…

> However something else is also a fact. That growth over the last 3 centuries in almost every area catapulted Europeans to incredible, almost seemingly impossible levels of economic success with respect to previous history. Have you looked deeper into what fueled this "incredible/impossible" growth you're so proud of? It was the disruption, colonization and then plunder of the resources of other societies around the…

Broadly your position appears to be that Africa is not necessarily backward but that if it is definitely backward then this is the consequence of Europeans conquering their lands centuries ago and since there are no European colonies anymore we Europeans have been manipulating them in the present day through corporations as proxies, thus retarding their (already slow because colonization) progress.

Is that an accurate summation?

Because if it is then the following must be true.

1. There must be a strong relationship between colonization and poverty. After all, they are taking your things.

2. Nations or ethic groups that are conquered by aggressors take considerable time to recover, perhaps many generations.

I repeat; is my summary accurate?

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However something else is also a fact. That growth over the last 3 centuries in almost every area catapulted Europeans to incredible, almost seemingly impossible levels of economic success with respect to previous history. Have you looked deeper into what fueled this "incredible/impossible" growth you're so proud of? It was the disruption, colonization and then plunder of the resources of other societies around the…

Broadly your position appears to be that Africa is not necessarily backward but that if it is definitely backward then this is the consequence of Europeans conquering their lands centuries ago and since there are no European colonies anymore we Europeans have been manipulating them in the present day through corporations as proxies, thus retarding their (already slow because colonization) progress. Is that an accurat…

The nations of Africa that have the most intact colonial apparatuses, and the most people with European ancestry - are the most wealthy.

I'm not making a moral argument.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Broadly your position appears to be that Africa is not necessarily backward but that if it is definitely backward then this is the consequence of Europeans conquering their lands centuries ago and since there are no European colonies anymore we Europeans have been manipulating them in the present day through corporations as proxies, thus retarding their (already slow because colonization) progress. Is that an accurat…

The nations of Africa that have the most intact colonial apparatuses, and the most people with European ancestry - are the most wealthy. I'm not making a moral argument.

[deleted]

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#120
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is something I had never considered. If many people become dependent on UBI, they are entirely dependent on the state - to the point they can be taken advantage of if power is abused. UBI in some ways does take an element of freedom from people, granted it may provide other forms of freedom. What is to stop the government from changing the laws to require everyone only on UBI (no job) to perform some form of com…

The same thing that, presumably, stops government from doing those things now - voters. That's not to say that system of checks works. Places like Florida have enacted mandatory drug testing for welfare recipients, so there's obviously some political will to punish and regulate the poor.

>Florida have enacted mandatory drug testing for welfare recipients

which is, ironically, the kind of Big Government bullshit the right-wing in this country claims to want less of. it's hypocritical.

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