Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser • Hacker News Board

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#111

Post by avindroth » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 10:26 PM UTC

hosh wrote: post #93

avindroth wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely despite passive-aggressive behaviour rooted in low self-esteem. They are invisible contracts people set. I think we have just faced a simple labeling problem, with people-pleasing as the ultimate vague word.

That's interesting. Why do you feel contempt for passive-aggressiveness rooted in low-self esteem? Do you feel you are superior to people who do that? Do you feel that those people are weak of character or resolve?

It's detailed further in No More Mr. Nice Guy, but I will explain it.

I specifically hate those who give to get. And when they give and don't get, they become passive-aggressive.

If I have low self-esteem, here is how I might behave. For the purposes of this example, I am Jack and the other person is Elizabeth.

1. I want care and attention from Elizabeth.

2. I give care and attention to her, hoping I will get them back.

3. When she doesn't give me care and attention I "deserve", I become passive-aggressive towards her.

Some people believe giving is the prerequisite to acceptance. They think they are not good enough. So in step 2, Jack sets an invisible contract with Elizabeth, without her knowing. He will give, give, give, and one day he will freak out.

Elizabeth has no idea why.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#112

Post by avindroth » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 10:28 PM UTC

kross wrote: post #77

avindroth wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. Let's take an example from the article. Be transparent, honest, and authentic. Do not ever waiver from this; white lies and false smiles quickly snowball into a life lived out of alignment. Let's say John is this guy who is "transparent, honest, and authentic, and never waivering." And say Jack, John's friend, is addicted to playing Overwatch. John comes by and says, "Jack, you shouldn't play Overwatch. You are…

There are some other foundational things needed for living a full life (which I infer is the author's point). > "Jack, you shouldn't play Overwatch..." This is judgement, which implies ego. The indicator here is "shouldn't". Ego isn't an authentic representation of self, it is fiction. If we can become aware of ego and avoid following it's incessant needs, we are closer to ego-lessness which can contribute significan…

Great point. There must be another level of authenticity and transparency I missed.

Thanks for the book recommendation! I loved The Power of Now.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#113

Post by avindroth » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 10:30 PM UTC

dpark wrote: post #110

avindroth wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. Let's take an example from the article. Be transparent, honest, and authentic. Do not ever waiver from this; white lies and false smiles quickly snowball into a life lived out of alignment. Let's say John is this guy who is "transparent, honest, and authentic, and never waivering." And say Jack, John's friend, is addicted to playing Overwatch. John comes by and says, "Jack, you shouldn't play Overwatch. You are…

> Then Jack opens up to Steve, which, in due time, can allow Steve to change Jack's mind. That's some pretty impressive hand-waving. The more likely outcome is that Jack keeps playing his game and Steve just wasted a bunch of time trying and failing to manipulate his "friend".

Sorry to get all experiential on you, but that statement is only empathisable with experience. I can go further in detail, but it really won't help you "get" it.

I suppose one way you can have that experience is practice actively trying to change people's behaviors. It's absolutely fascinating.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#114

Post by avindroth » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 10:38 PM UTC

brazzledazzle wrote: post #69

avindroth wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. Let's take an example from the article. Be transparent, honest, and authentic. Do not ever waiver from this; white lies and false smiles quickly snowball into a life lived out of alignment. Let's say John is this guy who is "transparent, honest, and authentic, and never waivering." And say Jack, John's friend, is addicted to playing Overwatch. John comes by and says, "Jack, you shouldn't play Overwatch. You are…

There's a difference between being honest and always saying what you think. You should be honest in your interactions but that doesn't mean you should tell everyone everything. You can be honest while being tactful. I think there's a line between being tactful and being manipulative and it may be different for everyone. For example you seem to think that Steve is telling a "white lie by omission" but I don't. Unless…

Most people live a fine life utilizing both honesty and white lie. Any normal parent won't look at their daughter in an ugly dress and yell, "That's ugly." Then you just lack social awareness.

Here is the problem though. Much like the juxtaposition of equality and liberty, our beliefs about honesty and our intuition about honesty belie each other. (This might not make much sense but bear with me here.)

If we believe that "Being honest always" is good (and that is what the article espouses), then we have already created a huge contradiction within ourselves. By holding that belief, you feel slightly righteous, but not quite so accurate.

Because you can't always be honest. By holding that belief, you are always selling yourself short.

But if you believe "I will use honesty and white lie to the best of my ability to do the most good for the other person", then you have an accurate (and also quite beautiful) map of the world.

Hope that answers your point.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#115

Post by avindroth » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 10:40 PM UTC

dasil003 wrote: post #59

avindroth wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. Let's take an example from the article. Be transparent, honest, and authentic. Do not ever waiver from this; white lies and false smiles quickly snowball into a life lived out of alignment. Let's say John is this guy who is "transparent, honest, and authentic, and never waivering." And say Jack, John's friend, is addicted to playing Overwatch. John comes by and says, "Jack, you shouldn't play Overwatch. You are…

This example is pretty heavy—I mean if you're talking about breaking someone of an addiction that is something far beyond the scope of how best to modulate ones behavior in the world. But it points to the real complexity of relationships. Someone that always offers a harsh unvarnished and negative opinion on things usually gets a reputation as a jerk. Someone who is always trying to please everyone gets a reputation…

Absolutely agreed. If you are at zero, and fifty is recommended, then having someone argue at one-hundred might be worthwhile.

But just because you were persuaded by one-hundred (be honest all the time) doesn't mean it's the best method for everyone.

What we need is an accurate model of fifty, and personalized solutions for those at zero or one-hundred. Skip the first step, you have no structure to hold you.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#116

Post by avindroth » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 10:47 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #67

avindroth wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

John comes by and says, "Jack, you shouldn't play Overwatch. You are wasting your time and energy." Jack responds, "I know, but just this one match."

Yeah exactly. Why don't both John and Steve both just worry about his own problems instead of trying to refine and optimize this needless intervention?

Jack responds, "I know...

Jack knows it's bad for him.

Let me ask, What do you live for? Why are you continuing your life on this planet? What will make you not regret on your deathbed?

For me, life is a festival. I am here to enjoy all the attractions. The scrumptious food, the unforgettable experiences, and the thrilling rides.

But nowadays I am realizing that a big part/joy of the festival is bringing other people to the festival, and showing them around. To enjoy, together. To eat, together. To experience, together.

That is why I worry about other people's problems. That is why Steve cares about John and is "intervening". Steve wants to bring John to the festival. And John wants to come, but he just needs a little help. Steve is there for him.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#117

Post by Mz » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 10:50 PM UTC

The author is a woman. I posit that this is a gendered issue. Women who are people pleasers tend to get treated like doormats. Men who are pleasant seem far more able to also stand up for themselves and it seems to be a completely different dynamic socially.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#118

Post by tdkl » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 10:51 PM UTC

avindroth wrote: post #111

hosh wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting. Why do you feel contempt for passive-aggressiveness rooted in low-self esteem? Do you feel you are superior to people who do that? Do you feel that those people are weak of character or resolve?

It's detailed further in No More Mr. Nice Guy , but I will explain it. I specifically hate those who give to get. And when they give and don't get, they become passive-aggressive. If I have low self-esteem, here is how I might behave. For the purposes of this example, I am Jack and the other person is Elizabeth. 1. I want care and attention from Elizabeth. 2. I give care and attention to her, hoping I will get them b…

Loved that book, it's quite an eye opener.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#119

Post by avindroth » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 10:54 PM UTC

st3v3r wrote: post #79

avindroth wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is being completely honest. Which is what the article espoused. The article also said do not hide your emotions. John is mad about the fact that his friend is wasting his life. I displayed that. If you are defining honest as some midpoint between a white lie and an asshole, then what is being honest? Not being completely honest, but just somewhat honest? Then your "honest" is a healthy mix of white lie and complet…

No, I'm sorry, but you're wrong. John is not being honest. He's being an asshole. Being "completely honest" and "not hiding your emotions" does not equal being an asshole. There are many, many ways to express both those things without acting like John. Seriously, I am completely sick and tired of this idea people have of excusing their assholery by claiming they're being "honest", and that showing even the most modic…

I completely empathize with your statement. I am also sick and tired of people excusing their assholery with notion of "being completely honest".

It's quite ridiculous.

Part of me wants to say that then maybe we should teach honesty differently. Instead of putting the virtue on a pedestal, we should use it as a tool when it is most fit.

If a white lie will engender a win-win relationship, use that.

Ultimately what we want is betterment of the other person and myself, and honesty is not always the answer.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#120

Post by rukuu001 » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 11:03 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #61

avindroth wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. Let's take an example from the article. Be transparent, honest, and authentic. Do not ever waiver from this; white lies and false smiles quickly snowball into a life lived out of alignment. Let's say John is this guy who is "transparent, honest, and authentic, and never waivering." And say Jack, John's friend, is addicted to playing Overwatch. John comes by and says, "Jack, you shouldn't play Overwatch. You are…

> "Jack, I am really fucking frustrated you are still playing that shitty game." That is not being authentic, and that's the problem. In our heads we know what we want, but we ask for something else. Why do you want your friend to get off the computer. To be off the computer? No. You miss your friend and you want him to hang out with you. You are worried that he is missing out on life by living in the game and you're…

You're right, but authenticity takes more work than that.

> In our heads we know what we want, but we ask for something else

I think we know when we're frustrated or angry, but they're reactions to other emotions like fear and confusion.

That's hard to realise in the middle of frustration/anger.

And hard to articulate when you're talking to your buddy about his gaming habits.