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Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

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Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#111

Post by jdmichal »

ceejayoz wrote: post #75
jdimov10 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's called being an idiot. Your government has brainwashed you into thinking of such acts as noble and courageous. They are not. Acts like this do not deserve admiration or respect. Encouraging this in the name of "patriotism" is beyond despicable. But to get back to the point, as an individual, the only reason you would do something like this is because you feel better knowing that you have sacrificed your life t…

I suspect people fall on grenades more to save their friends in the blast zone than some ideal of patriotism. There are cases not involving military/combat as well, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Oates . You appear to have constructed a weird, intentionally specifically narrow definition of altruism as a strawman. Congratulations on slaying it.

Specifically, one is either an egoist for receiving any type of reward, intrinsic or extrinsic, and regardless of intent, or an idiot otherwise.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#112

Post by HillaryBriss »

Roboprog wrote: post #97
Frenchgeek wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're the assholes of the land. We're just so good at it it spill over to the sea too. Let's hope one day we will be assholes in space.

Is that a new TV series this fall? I suppose it's been done, but this time, with an honest name.

Rectum Leap

... kind of combines the old title with the new concep ... eh ... never mind

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#113

Post by nostrebored »

jdmichal wrote: post #70
jdimov10 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't deny that altruism exists, but to me it's just another form of egoism. Nobody can convince me that they have ever done anything for ANY other reason than because of the belief that it will be good for them or that they'll get some sort of kick out of it. Not Mother Theresa, not anyone, ever. Because it's not possible. If you don't put your own interests first, you have nothing to give to others anyway. Moreov…

What's your definition of altruism? I let a guy behind me at the grocery check-out in front. He had one item and I had an entire belt full, and the express lines (for low item counts) were all closed. Why? Because I know that situation sucks, and it's what I would have wanted to happen for myself. Does that make it egoist? I don't know. I never expect to see that person again; I never expect anything to result from t…

The gp will find some way to construe your actions as selfish because doing selfless things is harder to understand for them than the mental gymnastics of figuring out what you're trying to get from the situation. People who are selfish assholes are usually unable to empathize with people who do selfless things, probably because they're bad at empathizing in general.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#114

Post by taco_emoji »

jdimov10 wrote: post #67
ceejayoz wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody can convince me that they have ever done anything for ANY other reason than because of the belief that it will be good for them or that they'll get some sort of kick out of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_on_a_grenade

That's called being an idiot. Your government has brainwashed you into thinking of such acts as noble and courageous. They are not. Acts like this do not deserve admiration or respect. Encouraging this in the name of "patriotism" is beyond despicable. But to get back to the point, as an individual, the only reason you would do something like this is because you feel better knowing that you have sacrificed your life t…

Your hypothesis (that everything is egoism) is unfalsifiable, and therefore useless.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#115

Post by Tosh108 »

cloverich wrote: post #99
rfrey wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like this point of view is unassailable because for every example that, in regular understanding, would be selfless behaviour, the definition of self-interest is stretched to encompass it. - Anonymous philanthropy => feelings of self worth - Low reward public service (Mother Theresa) => fame and influence - Parents sacrificing personal good for kids => some kind of evolutionary advantage - Falling on a grena…

I agree. I wonder if a better strategy would be to amend the definition of altruism to include doing something for someone else because it makes you feel good. Surely most would agree that "it makes me feel good to help someone" vs "I financially gained from helping someone" are not the same type of "selfishness" (excluding the genetic reductionist explanations).

My problem with this argument is there's an underlying assumption that the end of the day our basic core motive is selfish/egotistic, it might be so but many who use this assumption as a base of their arguments do not bother to prove it because believe that it is so.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#116

Post by idanoeman »

jdmichal wrote: post #70
jdimov10 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't deny that altruism exists, but to me it's just another form of egoism. Nobody can convince me that they have ever done anything for ANY other reason than because of the belief that it will be good for them or that they'll get some sort of kick out of it. Not Mother Theresa, not anyone, ever. Because it's not possible. If you don't put your own interests first, you have nothing to give to others anyway. Moreov…

What's your definition of altruism? I let a guy behind me at the grocery check-out in front. He had one item and I had an entire belt full, and the express lines (for low item counts) were all closed. Why? Because I know that situation sucks, and it's what I would have wanted to happen for myself. Does that make it egoist? I don't know. I never expect to see that person again; I never expect anything to result from t…

gp might claim that you did it so you could talk about it later :)

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#117

Post by Digit-Al »

mundo wrote: post #92
rfrey wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like this point of view is unassailable because for every example that, in regular understanding, would be selfless behaviour, the definition of self-interest is stretched to encompass it. - Anonymous philanthropy => feelings of self worth - Low reward public service (Mother Theresa) => fame and influence - Parents sacrificing personal good for kids => some kind of evolutionary advantage - Falling on a grena…

Most of the sacrifices I make for my kids feel like the exact opposite of self-gain. "Do something I want to do" vs "do something the kid would benefit from" is a choice presented to every parent every day. I don't think that the possibility that the latter might have some indirect self-benefit keeps it from being an act of altruism, for any reasonable definition of altruism. I mean, "some kind of evolutionary advant…

That's easy to answer. Taking care of your children is not aultruism, it's a genetic inevitability. Your genes have a 'selfish' desire to propogate themselves into the future. Your children are the means of doing this. To protect this investment your genes have gifted you with hormones that make you a happy and willing slave to these little bundles of genetic immortality. :-)

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#118

Post by Digit-Al »

kps wrote: post #91
kbenson wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, depending on whether you are looking for naturally occurring anthropomorphic behavior, they are either the best or worst place to look. :) That is, they are probably good evidence for some emotions in animals, but fairly useless in their current incarnation as to whether it was naturally occurring. Interestingly, it's entirely possible (and likely, IMO) that they exhibited some of this behavior originally due t…

‘Behaviour’ was the wrong word for me to use. I should have said, dogs are the worst place to look for human-like internal mental state. If your dog looks contrite when they've done something wrong, do they feel contrite, or have they just mechanically evolved to make you think they do?

They don't have to have done something wrong.

Years ago I had a lurcher, raised from a pup. One day I noticed that if you spoke to him in a stern manner - even if he had done absolutely nothing wrong he would hang his head low and look up at you, and put his tail between his legs as if he was guilty of something bad and wanted to look contrite.

It seems to me that it may be a long ago learned, now instinctive, behaviour to react that way to a particular tone of human voice.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#119

Post by Digit-Al »

5xman wrote: post #26
zipwitch wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only some of them. The transient orca are the ones who eat mammals and don't have large social groupings. The resident orca have larger (matriarchal) social groups and don't eat other mammals , just fish. It's always amazing to me that we have multiple intelligent (how intelligent is uncertain), social species right here on our own planet, and we spend such a tiny fraction of our energies as a society trying to commu…

Your comment and the parent really surprise me. Passing such moral judgements based on the diet of a species seems a bit 'youtubish'. Using the same logic one could argue that humpback whales are the real assholes since they protect those seals and sea lions so they can prey on those tiny, little penguins which are the cutest. (Seals even rape them :'( http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141117-why-seals-have-sex-w... )

Jesus! Those penguins definitely won't have 'happy feet' :-/

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#120

Post by will_brown »

jdimov10 wrote: post #71
blubb-fish wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That says something about you. But in general a lot of people act self-less in favor of a person they love.

Yea, it says that I'm awesome :) Come on, how can you possibly call this "self-less"?? If you're doing something for someone you love, it's because you love them. That's the ultimate good-feeling. You're doing it to feel good, period. I hate people who do things like this and then say "I acted selflessly for you". No, you didn't, you moron. You acted as selfish as can be. Now, thank you very much for doing what you d…

I think a big problem with your concepts about altruism and selflessness is assuming the actor had the choice to act or not act, so by definition if they acted it must be because they wanted to; therefore, its not selfless.

However, life is not usually a choice of act or don't act (help a love one or not). Moreover, when people make selfless decisions, we usually define them as such because the choice is action A or action B (buy a loved one a gift instead of yourself) and action A is objectively more beneficial to the actor (buy oneself a gift) but they still choose action B because the benefits it brings to others and the decision was based on putting others before oneself. In other words by sacrificing act A to do act B, you are right the actor will usually receive some subjective inherent benefit of doing B (it feels good to buy loved ones a gift), but the decision is not made on that basis because A would have made the actor feel even better than B, but the actor made the decision on the basis of putting others needs before their own.

Have you never done something you don't want to do to help someone else?

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