Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

news.ycombinator.com

111–120 of 148 posts

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#111
Currently we are an "on-site only" workplace.

There are two reasons for this, firstly and most importantly our primary founder has a law, not a technical, background.

This means he often has to just trust that myself and the other core team member are doing sensible things. With a large chunk of savings invested and the project running late (prototype and limited release 1 done, but 'core' functionality and UI still very much in progress) bums in seats is a very real metric.

Secondly is a combination of bad experience, low funds, and not the right time.

The company has had several other in office developers who were supremely sub par. A lot of my rapid acceptance into the company and (currently thrahing out the details of) gaining equity came from the removal of predecessors crap and providing simple and solid guarantees. This makes us edgey about trusting people to get on and do things without serious oversight.

Its obvious that this can be remedied in two ways- with more funds for the right developers and spending more time managing them. The funds are being remedied with our growing sales (yay!) and the time... well I'm primary developer and learning a hell of a lot about managing people.

Not the right time is a case of everytime we bring someone new in it will distract me for a fortnight or so... especially considering the current compensation we can offer. As we are near a wider release it does seem more sensible just to get on with it and hire with the money and time a wider release brings (or takes away, as I suspect will be the case with time).

Finally we should note I fully intend to bring remote working into the company. At first for new hires then a few years in for myself and the other two (likely rota'ish). This looks like an uphill battle with the founders but I'm sure when their stress can be lowered it will be a lot easier.

Regardless, life ahead shall be good.

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#112
post #106
post #86

As someone who has worked 10+ years remotely (based in South America) I think it's a combination of factors: Supply and demand. Why hire remote when there's plenty of warm bodies locally? Most companies do not need, and cannot afford, top-tier talent. Labor shortages are a myth. Managerial incompetence. How many of the managers have any experience managing a remote team? Do they know what to do and what not to do? Re…

> Managerial incompetence. How many of the managers have any experience managing a remote team? Do they know what to do and what not to do? What are the skills that someone needs to manage a remote team? How could someone measure whether he has them?

Ability to communicate properly and proficiency with collaboration tools rank high on the list. It's also crucial to be able to properly identify and evaluate the contributions of any team member.

Remote is also largely incompatible with micromanaging. If you don't trust the ability of your remote developers to take decisions on their own the team is likely to underperform and fall apart. This is one of the main reasons remote works much better with senior developers.

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#113
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What up-votes? I can barely read the Ask-HN question, it's such a light shade of gray. Someone really doesn't like it it seems. I gave it an up-vote anyway, because this is an interesting and highly relevant topic in the tech field, though I'm dubious of getting any substantive responses from anyone who's any kind of manager.

All text submissions are the same. HN really should change the styling as even the most upvoted text submission by the HN staff shows up as the same dim text, like this one from 'dang', a moderator: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12073675

Thanks for the clarification. They really should fix that, it's confusing for one (because down-modded posts are also light gray), and secondly because it's just plain hard to read.

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#114
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the problem. I would never work for a company that "Allowed telecommuting". I try to only work for companies that have a "remote first" mentality. Everyone in the entire company should have the ability to work from home or be traveling and working and be able to remain 100% productive. This is a culture issue at companies that will evolve over time. The focus needs to shift from "good their butts are in their…

Have you ever applied for a gig at a company that started out saying, "No telecommuting" and got the gig anyhow? If so, how did you make it happen?

Yeah, find out what the company policies are. Those might trump the job posting if they really want you.

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#115

At a few companies I've worked at, remote wasn't viable due to hardware development. It was difficult and expensive to replicate test setups for remote employees when unit costs for some of these devices range from 10 to 100k USD (e.g., VNAs).

VNA=Vector Network Analyzer?

Virtual No-SQL Ambulator.

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#116
Throwaway because old-timey founders are terrified of the internet.

I tick a few of your bullets, as I was hired for a local-only position which I eventually turned remote and also did all of the technical hiring (which was semi-local and 90% remote).

I applied for a "stealth" healthcare start-up "Director of Delivery" position which was local-only in a popular tech hub in the northwest US. When interviewing, I discovered I would be directing a team based in India and would be the first direct technical hire. The founders were unhappy with the outsourced work, and my job was to (1) get their abomination of a platform functional or rewrite it, (2) start hiring local talent, and eventually (3) phase out the India team. Pretty typical stuff.

Didn't talk about remoting in the interview, as it was not a priority of mine. The office was 15 minutes away from where I lived. Worked for the first few months in-office rewriting the majority of the platform, but was constantly distracted by questions and meetings. Basically became the go-to support for anything that beeped. Was operating anywhere between 30-50% efficiency in a given day. Founders came from the old school world of insurance, so everything had to be face-to-face and we had to have meetings for every single discussion. The idea of remoting was completely foreign to them, not something they were interested in talking about (I casually mentioned it once or twice to gauge their reactions).

Got to the point where the distractions were too frustrating and I asked the CEO if I could spend 2 days working from home so I could focus. He agreed. Set up JIRA and measured/tracked everything; my productivity and the India team's. After 2 months, presented the reports to the CEO. I had rewritten our platform, was ready to migrate from the old into the new, while the India team had only managed to close a handful of non-critical bugs. Explained that this was largely due to being able to work at home. Asked if I could go (almost) full-time remote with the understanding that I would be (1) available to come into the office as needed for any important meetings (e.g. C-level meetings with investors, partner companies, etc.) and (2) we would schedule a once-a-week sit down with the CEO and COO to make sure we were in sync. That's how I made it happen.

As for hiring, I got sick of working crazy hours and realized it was time to get some help. My personal opinion on remote (at that time) was that it had to be ineffective and generally a pain in the backside from both a managerial and technical/infrastructure. Despite my own experience and evidence to the contrary, I was wary of hiring someone halfway across the country. As such I opted to try and find people who were local, but wanted to work remote with the understanding that occasionally ("about once a month" is what we ended up with) they might need to drive into the office for important meetings. CEO approved it. As for how far away an employee could be located, I asked each in the interview what they would be comfortable with driving-time wise considering they had to come in once a month. Our farthest remote was ~60 minutes depending on traffic, average was ~35 (of 8 engineers total).

I answered a few of your questions in the above story, but will answer the ones I missed or was vague on bullet-by-bullet below:

* Why does the person who does this job need to be on-site? Please be specific. Give me examples of things that can only be done if she were in the office.

Because old-school management and business practices were being used by 50-60 year old founders. There was no practical reason for an engineer to be on-site, save for maintenance of one of our few on-site servers (which I out-sourced to a consulting company at some point).

* How has the policy affected your company’s ability to attract candidates?

I think our job postings attracted a very specific type of employee: the one who wanted to work remote, but wanted the ability to see and interact with their peers on occasion. We rarely received resumes from people outside of that group. Unfortunately I can't say if this increased our attraction in general, as the only engineering positions we ever interviewed for were remote.

I can say that, by word of mouth and networking (which I don't consider a reliable statistic), our remote policies definitely increased out attractiveness. Every one of my peers or acquaintances from conferences and such had great things to say about it and always asked to be notified when we had a position open. We hired about 50% of our team that way.

* What would it take for the company to change the no-telecommuters policy, even if only for one specific position?

Though I did not mention it above, our remote policy applied only to the engineering team. Our account managers, project managers, sales team, support team, etc. were in-office. I doubt they will change that; the founders simply cannot wrap their minds around how to manage a team remotely. Tools like JIRA and Slack don't make sense to them (even email is a challenge). If they did allow it, it would be case-by-case and role-based, while probably not allowing 90% remote. Example: there was very little reason for our social media person to be in-office since everything she did was online. I could see her position allowing remote most of the week, if she chose to fight for it. But the onus of proving that it would be a smart business decision would be on her; nobody from the management team will wake up one morning and think, "I should let more people work remote."

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#117
post #105
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay: So how would you advise someone to create that "real management for it"? Any references or suggestions you would recommend a well-meaning manager to gain the wisdom and skills necessary? (Because I also will be writing, separately, about how to do remote work well, and this is exactly the kind of info I want to impart.)

Two excellent sources are Moral Mazes [0] and Peopleware [1]. Moral Mazes is a principled and academic study of how managers believe ethics and morality work within systems of bureaucracy, and how this differs from the ethical expectations of subordinates and citizens who then have to develop their own rationalizations for how to fit into bureaucratic apparatuses, which they depend on for their livelihood, while comp…

I read _Peopleware_ when it first came out, and I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment. I've actually bought it three times, because I "loaned" it to someone and never got the book back.

I haven't encountered _Moral Mazes_ before; I'm going to look for it now!

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#118

I could be more productive remote, because it's less chair-time and more working when I'm really concentrated, 1.5h less commute, less distractions (i really love to block out the rest of the world with music and don't like headphones), real food and a bed for a quick nap at home. We are partly remote, but I'm sadly not. What is nice about non remote though: - you can see if a college has time for your questions - yo…

The language barrier thin is very real. I'm not a native English speaker and have very hard time understanding people with heavier accents. It's especially bad over phone/web conference. Also it's really amazing how crappy many companies' web conferencing setup is. They break down regularly, have poor sound quality and are generally really flaky. I know this is getting better with Hangouts and alike, but still, they…

> - less language barrier. I find it really hard to understand non-native speakers over a bad skype connection (high quality headsets would fix this I believe)

> The language barrier thin is very real. I'm not a native English speaker and have very hard time understanding people with heavier accents. It's especially bad over phone/web conference.

Solution: Hire only people who speak good English (yes, you should test them / interview them before hiring them!)

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#119
post #108
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was, at least. About 15 years ago I got a demo at a Gartner conference from a company doing just that. The vendor's primary goal, they said, was to measure where the developer was spending his time (coding vs debugger vs editor... I think it was a Visual Studio add-in?). But they admitted employers could use it to track what the developer was/wasn't doing. ...and that was before Facebook.

I see. But it was not necessarily just to target remote people. My wife had to use a time tracker like that a while ago, supposedly for the same reason: understand where people spend their time.

This is a tangent... but I haven't run across such tools recently. I wonder whether they weren't good at what they purported to do, or whether companies quit paying such careful attention to where workers spent their time.

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#120

I am a remote worker and if I ever ran a company I wouldn't allow telecommuting. Here is why: When I was at the office for a decade, 90% of the insight and productivity came from informal conversations in the hallway, lunches and things I overheard in passing. As a remote worker, nearly all communication is very deliberate so I am not exposed to those ad-hoc conversations. Everything is very deliberate: I receive an…

This is the problem. I would never work for a company that "Allowed telecommuting". I try to only work for companies that have a "remote first" mentality. Everyone in the entire company should have the ability to work from home or be traveling and working and be able to remain 100% productive. This is a culture issue at companies that will evolve over time. The focus needs to shift from "good their butts are in their…

Dude I feel like you completely didn't read the guy's comment. He just highlighted exactly why having 'butts in seats' as you say, is a good thing
Post reply on HN